Commands given in past tense

[rkeyster]

Hi again,

I was reading a newspaper article about a two creepy guys attempting to lure little kids into their van. I came across the following sentence:

Le dijo a la menor que subiera.

(The article is describing how this guy told the little girl to get in their van).

My question is, why is that particular tense (I don't even know what it's called) used for "subir"? Is that the tense one uses when describing commands that were given in the past?

If I am not making sense, I apologize; I'll be happy to explain more if necessary!

[poli]

it's not an imperitive. I don't think the imperative works in the past unless
it's done in quotes. Example: He told the girl "get in".
As for subiera: subiera is the past tense subjunctive and not a command.

[pjt33]

The general structure here is decirle a alguien que + subjunctive. The obvious example is "Dile que venga", but as that also contains an imperative it may be too confusing. Or it may be enlightening, so I'll leave it in.

Si le dices que venga y no viene, ¿qué harás?
If you tell him/her/it to come and he/she/it doesn't come, what will you do?

[Tomisimo]

As Poli said, it's the subjunctive.

Present: Le digo que suba.
Past: Le dije que subiera.

[rkeyster]

Just to clarify: if I wanted to say:

"I asked her to speak."

I would say:

"Le dije que hablara."

So in other words, when I am relating a command in the past tense ("I told/asked someone to do something," etc.) I use the past tense subjunctive?

[Elaina]

rkeyster.......you are a fast learner!

[chileno]

Just to clarify: if I wanted to say:

"I asked her to speak."

I would say:

"Le dije que hablara."

So in other words, when I am relating a command in the past tense ("I told/asked someone to do something," etc.) I use the past tense subjunctive?

Le dije que hablara = I told her that she spoke... (I guess)

I asked her to speak = Le pedí (a ella) hablar.

[Rusty]

Perhaps this will help.

The subjunctive is a mood and, as such, doesn't have a tense.
There are several reasons to use the subjunctive mood - one of which is with a verb of volition. Your sentence is a good example of this, although you've used the word 'command' to describe 'volition'.
The command form, or the imperative, is different than the subjunctive (although it can look identical in some cases).

The verb ask, when it's used to get someone to do something, is a verb of volition. Its infinitive is pedir. Your sentence used decir (to tell/say).
The verb want is also a verb of volition.

The verb_of_volition+que+dependent_clause structure is used when the subject of the sentence changes. This structure isn't used a lot in English, but it must be used (and is VERY PREVALENT) in Spanish.

~~~
If the verb (that requires the subjunctive mood) in the main clause is in the present tense, future tense, present/future perfect tenses, or the imperative, WITH a dependent clause that happens at the same time or after the time established in the main clause, the PRESENT SUBJUNCTIVE is used. (There used to be a future subjunctive, but it isn't used in modern speech.)

Quiero que me traigas un vaso de agua.
(I want that you bring me a glass of water.)
Colloquial English: I want you to bring me a glass of water.

If, on the other hand, the dependent clause happens at a time prior to the time established in the main clause, the PRESENT PERFECT SUBJUNCTIVE or the IMPERFECT SUBJUNCTIVE is used.
(Note that the imperfect subjunctive has two forms!)

Es bueno que no hayas estado enfermo.
(It's good you haven't been sick.)

Es bueno que no estuvieras/estuvieses enfermo.
(It's good you weren't sick.)

~~~
If the verb (that requires the subjunctive mood) in the main clause is in either of the past tenses, either of the past perfect tenses, or if it's in the conditional or conditional perfect tenses, the verb in the dependent clause takes the IMPERFECT SUBJUNCTIVE.

Quería que me trajeras/trajeses un vaso de agua.
(I wanted that you bring me a glass of water.)
Colloquial English: I wanted you to bring me a glass of water.

Me gustaría que primero me pidieras/pidieses permiso.
(I would like that first you ask me permission.)
Colloquial English: I would like it if you asked for my permission first.

~~~
There are a couple of exceptions to these rules, but I don't think you'll have any problem understanding them when you encounter them. So, don't worry about them right now.

:):)

[chileno]

Rusty,

After reading your help, and several times, which proves that I am a fool, I could not determine if "I told her that she spoke..." is correct in English or not.

Would you please say to this simpleton just a yes or no?

:D

[Rusty]

Rusty,

After reading your help, and several times, which proves that I am a fool, I could not determine if "I told her that she spoke..." is correct in English or not.

Would you please say to this simpleton just a yes or no?

:DIf you're using told as a verb of volition, the colloquial English sentence is:
I told her to speak slowly.
I asked her to speak slowly.

There is no difference between present or past tense.

If you use the subjunctive form in English (rare), the sentence would be:
I ask that she speak slowly.
I asked that she speak slowly.

There is still no difference between present or past tense.

[chileno]

If you're using told as a verb of volition, the colloquial English sentence is:
I told her to speak slowly.
I asked her to speak slowly.

There is no difference between present or past tense.

If you use the subjunctive form in English (rare), the sentence would be:
I ask that she speak slowly.
I asked that she speak slowly.

There is still no difference between present or past tense.

I am sorry for being so hard headed but: is it or is not correct grammar in English to say "I told her that she spoke..." and could you explain?

Thank you Sir.

[Rusty]

That is a perfectly fine sentence, pero no tiene nada que ver con el hilo.
That sentence is a statement, in the indicative mood.

Le dije (a ella) que habló bien.
I told her she spoke well (last night, yesterday, last week).

Le dije (a ella) que habla bien.
I told her she speaks well.

[chileno]

That is a perfectly fine sentence, pero no tiene nada que ver con el hilo.
That sentence is a statement, in the indicative mood.

Le dije (a ella) que habló bien.
I told her she spoke well (last night, yesterday, last week).

Le dije (a ella) que habla bien.
I told her she speaks well.

Totally obtuse, I have been....

Thanks for clearing me...I was getting dizzy...:dancingman: :dancingman: :dancingman: Very! :)

[rkeyster]

Thanks for the replies everyone, but I am still just as confused about my original question. It seems like the sentence:

Le dijo a la menor que subiera.

would mean: He told the little girl to get in (the van).

However, based on the replies here, it seems as if - in a strict grammatical sense - the sentence actually reads:

He told the little girl that she got in (the van).

Which doesn't seem to make sense in the context of the article.

So my question, what does that sentence actually mean (Le dijo a la menor que subiera)? Am I just misinterpreting, and the sentence actually means that he told her that she got in the van? Or is he telling her to get in the van?

[chileno]

Then I am still dizzy... :dancingman: :dancingman: :dancingman: :) :D :lol:

[Rusty]

It seems like the sentence:
Le dijo a la menor que subiera.
would mean: He told the little girl to get in (the van). :good::good: This is correct! This is what the Spanish sentence means, written in everyday English.

However, based on the replies here, it seems as if - in a strict grammatical sense - the sentence actually reads:

He told the little girl that she get in (the van). With the correction, this is also a correct translation of the Spanish sentence, but it's written in the English subjunctive mood (which is rarely used).

So my question, what does that sentence actually mean (Le dijo a la menor que subiera)?He told the little girl to get in.

[chileno]

He told the little girl to get in.

:duh: :banghead:

Thank you.

I would give a kiss if you did not wear a mustache... :wicked: