Translating a simple paragraph (Exercise 8-11)

[laepelba]

Continuing to work through a book of basic Spanish grammar exercises, in an attempt to fill in some of the "holes" in the learning that I've done so far. It has been (I believe) very fruitful so far.

One of the exercises in the chapter covering reflexive verbs and reflexive constructions asks me to translate a simple paragraph from English to Spanish. I wasn't as happy with this one as some of the previous ones. I felt good about it when I wrote it. The number of errors surprised me. :(

I want to ask some questions, though. So I'm going to include here (1) the original English paragraph, (2) my original translation, and (3) the "corrected" translation. I will indicate my questions at the bottom of this post.



{||}Original English Paragraph | My First Attempt at Translation | The "Corrected" Translation
{|}Carlos and Alexandra go shopping frequently. Alex tries on expensive dresses at the store, but Carlos does not get angry. Usually, she does not spend a lot of money, but she takes a long time shopping. Alex goes to the fitting room, she undresses, she tries on several dresses of famous designers, she looks at herself in the mirror, and she forgets about Carlos. He gets tired of waiting, sits on a sofa, and falls asleep. While Carlos sleeps, Alex goes to the shoe department and puts on several pairs of shoes. Then she goes to the perfume and makeup section, and she buys herself several beauty products. She knows Carlos does not get upset because she does not spend too much money. Later, Alex says good-bye to the saleslady, and she meets Carlos. He wakes up. He is surprised because Alex is carrying many packages, and he worries a bit. Alex says she does not spend too much money, and Carlos calms down. They go to the cafeteria, and they have an afternoon snack. As usual, it is late, and they decide it is not worth it to go to the men's department.
| Carlos y Alexandra van de compras frequentamente. Alex se prueba vestidos caros en la tienda, pero Carlos no se enoja. Usualmente, ella no gasta mucho dinero, pero toma un largo tiempo de compras. Alex va al probador, se desviste, se prueba algunos vestidos de diseñadores famosos, se mira en el espejo, y se olvida sobre Carlos. Él se cansa de esperar, se sienta en un sofá, y se duerme. Mientras que Carlos duerme, Alex va a la zapatería y se pone algunos pares de zapatos. Entonces, ella va a la sección de perfume y maquillaje, y compra para su misma algunos productos de belleza. Ella sabe que Carlos no se disgusta porque ella no gasta demasiado dinero. Más tarde, Alex se despide a la vendedora, y se encontra a Carlos. Él se despierta. Él está sorprendiéndose porque ella está llevando muchos paquetes, y él se preocupa un poco. Alex dice que no gasta demasiado dinero, y Carlos se tranquiliza. Ellos van a una cafetería, y comen una merienda. Como siempre es tarde, y ellos deciden que no vale la pena a ir al departamento de caballeros.
| Carlos y Alexandra van de compras (1) frequentamente a menudo. Alex se prueba los vestidos caros (2) en de la tienda (3) , pero Carlos no se enoja. (4) Usualmente Generalmente, ella no gasta mucho dinero, pero (5), (6) & (7) toma un largo tiempo de compras se demora mucho tiempo comprando. Alex va al probador, se desviste, se prueba (8) algunos varios vestidos de diseñadores famosos, se mira en el espejo, y se olvida (9) sobre de Carlos. Él se cansa de esperar, se sienta en un sofá, y se duerme. Mientras (10) que Carlos duerme, Alex (11) se va a la zapatería y se pone (8) algunos varios pares de zapatos. (12) Entonces Después, ella (11) se va a la sección de (13) perfumería y maquillaje, y (14) se compra (15) para su misma algunos productos de belleza. Ella Sabe que Carlos no se (16) disgusta enoja porque ella no gasta (17) demasiado mucho dinero. (18) Más tarde Luego, Alex se despide (19) a de la vendedora, y se (20) encontra a reúne con Carlos. Él se despierta. (21) Él está sorprendiéndose Se sorprende porque ella está llevando Alex lleva muchos paquetes, y él se preocupa un poco. Alex dice que ella no gasta (17) demasiado mucho dinero, y Carlos se tranquiliza. Ellos (11) Se van a una la cafetería, y (22) comen una merienda meriendan. Como (23) & (24) siempre de costumbre ya es tarde, y ellos deciden que no vale la pena (25) a ir al visitar el departamento de caballeros.


My Questions:
(1) Are "frequentamente" and "a menudo" interchangeable here?
(2) Not "en" but "de"? Why?
(3) This happens a lot in these translated paragraphs. I try to use commas the same way I would in English, and end up using too many. What is the main idea of use of commas in Spanish?
(4) Are "usualmente" and "generalmente" interchangeable here?
(5) Compare the use of "tomar" and "demorar" and "demorarse" for me, please. I think I understand why it's not "tomar", but I don't see the difference between "demorar" and "demorarse".
(6) Why "mucho" instead of "un largo"?
(7) Why "comprando" instead of "de compras"?
(8) Two times. Why "varios" instead of "algunos"? When would I use "algunos"?
(9) Is "de" the typical preposition for "olvidarse"?
(10) Does "mientras" always take "que"?
(11) Three times. Why "irse" instead of just "ir"?
(12) Are "entonces" and "después" interchangeable here?
(13) It seems to me that it should be either "sección de perfume" OR "perfumería", but not both. Doesn't "perfumería" mean "perfume section"? I triple checked the answer key and it definitely says "sección de perfumería". Am I wrong here?
(14) Why "comprarse" instead of "comprar"?
(15) I don't know if the grammar of the phrase is right, but why should it be omitted all together? It's there in the English....
(16) Compare the use of "disgustarse" and "enojarse" for me, please. I thought the former was more like "upset" and the latter more like "angry". Is that correct? Are they sometimes used in the same situation?
(17) Two times. Why "mucho" and not "demasiado"? What would be a situation in which I'd use "demasiado dinero"?
(18) Are "más tarde" and "luego" interchangeable here?
(19) Does "despedirse" always go with "de" and not "a"?
(20) I don't really like the wording of the English here. I wouldn't use "meet" in that context. Please explain to me the difference in usage between "encontrar" and "reunir".
(21) Okay, so I DO understand why it wouldn't be "sorprendiendo", but could it be "Él se está sorprendido"? Does it HAVE to be "se sorprende"? There are a couple of places where the English implies "estar + gerundio" but the answer key has the translation in the present indicative. Is this one of those cases (just like "está llevando" vs. "lleva" in the same sentence?)
(22) They gave a word bank with this translation exercise, and gave "la merienda" as "afternoon snack". But in the answer key it looks like they're using the verb "merendar". Are these (noun and verb) commonly used anyway? I've only ever heard comer, desayunar, almorzar, and cenar.
(23) Are "siempre" and "de costumbre" interchangeable here?
(24) Why the use of "ya" here? Does it work without the "ya"?
(25) Are "ir a" and "visitar" (without preposition) interchangeable here?

Many, many thanks in advance for your help with this!!

[chileno]

Basically you are correct on most of those doubts you have, but it takes too long to write them. I would like to chat with you over the internet about this. So, please send me a PM stating your time availability. And let see if we can connect direct to chat over this points.

:)

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

Carlos y Alexandra van de compras (1) frequentamente a menudo. Alex se prueba los vestidos caros (2) en de la tienda (3) , pero Carlos no se enoja. (4) Usualmente Generalmente, ella no gasta mucho dinero, pero (5), (6) & (7) toma un largo tiempo de compras se demora mucho tiempo comprando. Alex va al probador, se desviste, se prueba (8) algunos varios vestidos de diseñadores famosos, se mira en el espejo, y se olvida (9) sobre de Carlos. Él se cansa de esperar, se sienta en un sofá, y se duerme. Mientras (10) que Carlos duerme, Alex (11) se va a la zapatería y se pone (8) algunos varios pares de zapatos. (12) Entonces Después, ella (11) se va a la sección de (13) perfumería y maquillaje, y (14) se compra (15) para su misma algunos productos de belleza. Ella Sabe que Carlos no se (16) disgusta enoja porque ella no gasta (17) demasiado mucho dinero. (18) Más tarde Luego, Alex se despide (19) a de la vendedora, y se (20) encontra a reúne con Carlos. Él se despierta. (21) Él está sorprendiéndose Se sorprende porque ella está llevando Alex lleva muchos paquetes, y él se preocupa un poco. Alex dice que ella no gasta (17) demasiado mucho dinero, y Carlos se tranquiliza. Ellos (11) Se van a una la cafetería, y (22) comen una merienda meriendan. Como (23) & (24) siempre de costumbre ya es tarde, y ellos deciden que no vale la pena (25) a ir al visitar el departamento de caballeros.


(1) Are "frequentamente" and "a menudo" interchangeable here?
— No, the ones that are interchangeable are "frecuentemente" and "a menudo". :D


(2) Not "en" but "de"? Why?
— Here it's because the one who wrote it is underlining that the dresses belong to the store, not where she's trying them. However, "en" might have been a more natural translation for "at" in this case.


(3) This happens a lot in these translated paragraphs. I try to use commas the same way I would in English, and end up using too many. What is the main idea of use of commas in Spanish?
— Commas sometimes are a matter of style. I'd say this one is optional, although in such a short sentence it feels unnecessarily heavy.
As soon as I have time to make an outline for the rules about commas I'll post it. :)


(4) Are "usualmente" and "generalmente" interchangeable here?
— Yes. Maybe "generalmente" is more generally used. ;)
Another option is "normalmente".


(5) Compare the use of "tomar" and "demorar" and "demorarse" for me, please. I think I understand why it's not "tomar", but I don't see the difference between "demorar" and "demorarse".
— For the more literal translation you were searching you need the pronominal form of "tomar" -> "tomarse (tiempo)"
In your example:
Alex se toma mucho tiempo para comprar. / Alex se toma mucho tiempo comprando. / Alex se demora mucho en comprar. / Alex se demora mucho comprando.
"Demorarse (haciendo algo)" immediately translates the idea of "taking a long time (doing something)"
"Demorar" needs a direct object. ("Demorar algo")
· Demoramos la reunión para que el director pudiera llegar.
We slowed down the meeting so the director could arrive.
· El profesor demoró la respuesta hasta estar seguro de que era correcta.
The teacher delayed the answer until he was sure that it was correct.


(6) Why "mucho" instead of "un largo"?
— "Mucho" is the immediate adjective.
"Un largo tiempo" suggests to me a really looooong time... years at least. :thinking:
It's alright if you're conscious that you're exaggerating on how long she takes for shopping. :)


(7) Why "comprando" instead of "de compras"?
— First, because your exercise is on continued actions. ;)
But apart from that, the most natural thing is to say "comprando", since she's shopping aaaaall the time by trying on clothes and shoes, picking up cosmetics, etc.
I think "de compras" should need extra words like "se demora mucho cuando va/está de compras". But one more for your "gerundios": "Alex se demora mucho estando de compras".


(8) Two times. Why "varios" instead of "algunos"? When would I use "algunos"?
— "Algunos" is "some". "Varios" is several. I'd say "several" is clearly more than "some", right? :thinking:


(9) Is "de" the typical preposition for "olvidarse"?
— Olvidar algo/a alguien
· Olvida a tu novio y vamos a divertirnos.
Forget your boyfriend and let's go have some fun.
· Olvidé la cartera en casa.
I forgot my wallet at home.
In Spain people can say "olvidarse algo" instead:
· Me olvidé la billetera en casa.
I forgot my wallet at home.
Olvidarse de algo/alguien
· En estas vacaciones nos olvidamos completamente del trabajo.
During these holidays we completely forgot about work.
· ¿Tan pronto te olvidaste de mí?
Did you forget about me so quickly?


(10) Does "mientras" always take "que"?
— No, it doesn't, as you see in your corrected text. ;)
"Mientras" is like "at the same time"
· Juan trabaja mientras tú ves televisión.
Juan is working at the same time that you're watching TV. -> Simple fact, no special implication.
"Mientras que" is like "whereas"
· Juan trabaja mientras que tú ves televisión.
Juan is working whereas you sleep. -> A reproach that poor Juan works and you're lazy. :)


(11) Three times. Why "irse" instead of just "ir"?
— I'd say "ir" and "irse" here are interchangeable.
I would use "irse" to emphasize that someone goes out from a place, rather than their heading towards somewhere else.
"Va a la zapatería" / "va a perfumería" is not incorrect.


(12) Are "entonces" and "después" interchangeable here?
— We've seen this one before, but yes. Also "luego".
Nuance: "entonces" often rather implies that a previous action has been accomplished and then one more starts.
· María terminó de lavar la ropa y entonces pudo irse al cine.
María finished doing her laundry and then she could go to the movies. (Please note the use of "irse" here... she's leaving home at last, she's not only going to the movies.) ;)


(13) It seems to me that it should be either "sección de perfumes" OR "perfumería", but not both. Doesn't "perfumería" mean "perfume section"? I triple checked the answer key and it definitely says "sección de perfumería". Am I wrong here?
— Yes and no. "Departamento/sección de perfumería" is not incorrect.
But you're right about the fact that there are a few extra words anyway: It's true that the sole name of the department already suggests "la sección/departamento de"; also "y maquillaje" drags along more words, being itself unnecessary, since "Perfumería" doesn't only sell perfumes, but all kinds of cosmetics. (It must have been a man who wrote it.) ;)
There are several ways to say it: "después (se) va a perfumería" or "...al departamento de perfumería" or "...a la sección de perfumería".
As for the names of the departments one can say things like:
· Te veo en Electrónica.
I see you at the electronics department.
· Carlos espera a Alex en Zapatería.
Carlos is waiting for Alex at the shoe department.


(14) Why "comprarse" instead of "comprar"?
(15) I don't know if the grammar of the phrase is right, but why should it be omitted all together? It's there in the English....
— "Comprar" is a too general idea, which doesn't tell the purpose of buying or for whom one's buying.
· Alex compró unos zapatos.
Alex bought some shoes. -> For her? Are you sure?
"Se compró" implies she bought something for herself (so you see, it's there in Spanish too).
The hint for using many pronominals in Spanish is usually that there is a "oneself" involved in English.
"Comprar para sí misma" is one of those ugly-isms that one must avoid. :lengua:
About the suppression of "ella" (and "él" somewhere else): If you're already using the name of one of the two people you've been talking about and it's explicit enough who this is, the pronoun is unnecessary.


(16) Compare the use of "disgustarse" and "enojarse" for me, please. I thought the former was more like "upset" and the latter more like "angry". Is that correct? Are they sometimes used in the same situation?
— Interchangeable here, although "disgustarse" is slighter than "enojarse".


(17) Two times. Why "mucho" and not "demasiado"? What would be a situation in which I'd use "demasiado dinero"?
— "Mucho" and "demasiado" might be interchangeable in this case, according to your prejudices (you know, women spending a lot and so on). :)
However:
"Mucho dinero" is a somehow realistic expression, meaning that you can spend comparatively much money in clothes, shoes or cosmetics.
A clear situation in which you'd use "demasiado dinero" without exaggerating, might imply a situation in which you're using credit to buy much more than what you can actually pay for.


(18) Are "más tarde" and "luego" interchangeable here?
— Kind of... although "más tarde" might suggest much time (several hours maybe) has passed between both actions.
"Luego" and "después" are more interchangeable, and suggest a more immediate succession of actions. :)


(19) Does "despedirse" always go with "de" and not "a"?
— "Despedir a" -> To fire someone from a job or to say goodbye to someone when you're, for example, at the train or bus station (waving a white handkerchief maybe). ;)
· Vengo del aeropuerto. Fui a despedir a Juan.
I'm coming back from the airport. I went to say goodbye to Juan.
· El jefe despidió a María.
The boss fired María.
"Despedirse de (alguien/algo)" -> to say goodbye to someone/something
· Juan se despidió de mí con lágrimas en los ojos.
Juan said goodbye to me with tears in his eyes.
· Salí del edificio sin despedirme de nadie.
I left the building without saying goodbye to anyone.
· ¡Despídase de las dietas y baje de peso sin esfuerzo!
Say goodbye to diets and lose weight with no effort!


(20) I don't really like the wording of the English here. I wouldn't use "meet" in that context. Please explain to me the difference in usage between "encontrar" and "reunir".
— Note one: "encuentra", not "encontra" would have been the right conjugation.
Note two: Please note there are big differences between pronominal and non-pronominal forms with those verbs:
"Encontrar algo" -> to find something
· Encontré las llaves que había perdido.
I found the keys I had lost.
"Encontrarse algo" -> to find something you weren't looking for
· Me encontré una araña en el lavabo. :eek:
I found a spider in the bathroom sink.
"Reunir" -> to gather
· Reunimos mucho dinero juntos.
We gathered much money together.
"Encontrarse" -> to find oneself
· De repente me encontré en medio del parque.
I suddenly found myself in the middle of the park.
"Encontrarse a alguien" -> to meet someone unintentionally
"Encontrarse con alguien" -> to meet someone unintentionally or intentionally
· En la mañana me encontré accidentalmente a/con Juan en la escalera.
I accidentally met Juan this morning at the stairs.
· Todas las mañanas me encuentro con María en la escalera para ir a correr.
Every morning I meet María at the stairs to go jogging.
"Reunirse con alguien" -> to meet someone intentionally
· Me reuní con mis amigos para hacer la tarea.
My friends and I met to do the homework.
· María fue a comer y regresó a reunirse con nosotros.
María went out for lunch and she came back to be with us.


(21) Okay, so I DO understand why it wouldn't be "sorprendiendo", but could it be "Él se está sorprendido"? Does it HAVE to be "se sorprende"? There are a couple of places where the English implies "estar + gerundio" but the answer key has the translation in the present indicative. Is this one of those cases (just like "está llevando" vs. "lleva" in the same sentence?)
— "Se está sorprendiendo" = "está sorprendiéndose"
But as you've seen the "gerundio" doesn't apply here, because it's not something he is doooooiiiiinnnng, but something that either he does or something that happens to him at once, so simple present: "Se sorprende."
"Sorprendido" is an adjective, not a past participle here. Don't be confused with perfect tenses (in this case, "pretérito perfecto"): haber (not ser or estar) + participio => "Carlos se ha sorprendido"
I can't make a technical explanation for the next thing, sorry. :thinking:
Keep in mind however, that "gerund" is not always the same as "gerundio": we use it much less and many times it's translated into Spanish with simple present or with an infinitive.
If I read "Alex está llevando muchos paquetes", I think I'd ask "from where to where is she taking them?".
"Lleva muchos paquetes" here immediately says to me that she's carrying them as she approaches Carlos.


(22) They gave a word bank with this translation exercise, and gave "la merienda" as "afternoon snack". But in the answer key it looks like they're using the verb "merendar". Are these (noun and verb) commonly used anyway? I've only ever heard comer, desayunar, almorzar, and cenar.
— "Merendar" is in the late afternoon. "Cenar" is at night.
"Merendar" and "merienda" are a little old-fashioned words, but still used.
Btw: "Comer una merienda/cena/comida" is a pleonasm. Under normal conditions, what else would you do with food? ;)
· La merienda estuvo deliciosa.
Dinner was delicious.
· Tenemos una merienda en casa de María.
We have an appointment for dinner at María's.
As for the action of eating a "merienda/comida/cena" itself, we prefer the corresponding verb.
They have dinner -> Cenan (at night) / meriendan (in the afternoon)
We have lunch -> Comemos
She has breakfast -> Desayuna / Almuerza


(23) Are "siempre" and "de costumbre" interchangeable here?
— Yes, they are.
(Couldn't all your questions be as easy to answer as this one?) ;)


(24) Why the use of "ya" here? Does it work without the "ya"?
— "Como siempre es tarde..." sounds like an incomplete sentence.
"Ya" in this case, can be replaced by a comma: "como siempre, es tarde...", but it doesn't have the same emphasis on the fact that the store is already about to close and they can't do Carlos' shopping.


(25) Are "ir a" and "visitar" (without preposition) interchangeable here?
— Yes, with a nuance:
"Visitar el departamento de caballeros" suggests to wander around, pick up some items, try them on, etc.
"Ir al departamento de caballeros" could be just to walk towards there.


http://forums.tomisimo.org/picture.php?albumid=51&pictureid=590

[chileno]

http://forums.tomisimo.org/picture.php?albumid=51&pictureid=590

wow! :)

[laepelba]

(1) Are "frequentamente" and "a menudo" interchangeable here?
— No, the ones that are interchangeable are "frecuentemente" and "a menudo". :D DOH!! Thanks....


(3) This happens a lot in these translated paragraphs. I try to use commas the same way I would in English, and end up using too many. What is the main idea of use of commas in Spanish?
— Commas sometimes are a matter of style. I'd say this one is optional, although in such a short sentence it feels unnecessarily heavy.
As soon as I have time to make an outline for the rules about commas I'll post it. :) That sounds fabulous....


(7) Why "comprando" instead of "de compras"?
— First, because your exercise is on continued actions. ;)
But apart from that, the most natural thing is to say "comprando", since she's shopping aaaaall the time by trying on clothes and shoes, picking up cosmetics, etc.
I think "de compras" should need extra words like "se demora mucho cuando va/está de compras". But one more for your "gerundios": "Alex se demora mucho estando de compras". SOOooooo ... apparently I'm still over-using "gerundios", even when I'm attempting NOT to use them very much....


(8) Two times. Why "varios" instead of "algunos"? When would I use "algunos"?
— "Algunos" is "some". "Varios" is several. I'd say "several" is clearly more than "some", right? :thinking:
Weeeeelllll, I wouldn't necessarily agree. "Several" is something countable, typically more than two, but not a super-lot. "Some" can be countable, but doesn't have to be. (Like the difference between "some crayons" and "several crayons" are the same thing, but I can drink "some water" but not "several water"...) But "several" can be fewer than "some" or more....


(14) Why "comprarse" instead of "comprar"?
(15) I don't know if the grammar of the phrase is right, but why should it be omitted all together? It's there in the English....
— "Comprar" is a too general idea, which doesn't tell the purpose of buying or for whom one's buying.
· Alex compró unos zapatos.
Alex bought some shoes. -> For her? Are you sure?
"Se compró" implies she bought something for herself (so you see, it's there in Spanish too).
The hint for using many pronominals in Spanish is usually that there is a "oneself" involved in English.
"Comprar para sí misma" is one of those ugly-isms that one must avoid. :lengua:
About the suppression of "ella" (and "él" somewhere else): If you're already using the name of one of the two people you've been talking about and it's explicit enough who this is, the pronoun is unnecessary.
Okay - that makes a lot of sense... the pronomial-ness of the verb gives the "for herself" meaning. :thumbsup:


http://forums.tomisimo.org/picture.php?albumid=51&pictureid=590 THANKS!!!!!!!!!

THANK YOU so much!!!! I really hope you know how extremely grateful I am to you for ALL of your ongoing help!!!

[Jessica]

...


http://forums.tomisimo.org/picture.php?albumid=51&pictureid=590

wow a lot of work :eek:

[irmamar]

Yes! :applause:

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

(7) Why "comprando" instead of "de compras"?
— First, because your exercise is on continued actions. ;)
But apart from that, the most natural thing is to say "comprando", since she's shopping aaaaall the time by trying on clothes and shoes, picking up cosmetics, etc.
I think "de compras" should need extra words like "se demora mucho cuando va/está de compras". But one more for your "gerundios": "Alex se demora mucho estando de compras". SOOooooo ... apparently I'm still over-using "gerundios", even when I'm attempting NOT to use them very much....


Not in this case, since you preferred "de compras" instead of "comprando". The last example was a valid use of "de compras" and a "gerundio". :)
Don't be overstressed about it though... it will need some more practice to develop the feeling. :)


(8) Two times. Why "varios" instead of "algunos"? When would I use "algunos"?
— "Algunos" is "some". "Varios" is several. I'd say "several" is clearly more than "some", right? :thinking:
Weeeeelllll, I wouldn't necessarily agree. "Several" is something countable, typically more than two, but not a super-lot. "Some" can be countable, but doesn't have to be. (Like the difference between "some crayons" and "several crayons" are the same thing, but I can drink "some water" but not "several water"...) But "several" can be fewer than "some" or more....

Alright. I'll learn that.
In Spanish "algunos" suggests less than "varios", and the paragraph needed to underline that she tries on many items. :)


@Irma, Hernán, Jessica: Thanks! Some idle evenings can become productive. :D

[laepelba]

Alright. I'll learn that.
In Spanish "algunos" suggests less than "varios", and the paragraph needed to underline that she tries on many items. :)


In English, I would say "a couple" or "a few" to emphasize a smaller number of things:
- "I have a few crayons." OR "I have a couple of crayons." FEELS smaller than "I have several crayons." or even "I have some crayons."

[CrOtALiTo]

[...]

http://forums.tomisimo.org/picture.php?albumid=51&pictureid=590

I never see in my whole life a correction long in the website.

Congratulation for the time got.