Bullfighting banned in Cataluña

[Tomisimo]

Bullfighting has been banned in Cataluña (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-10784611). What do you think-- good decision? Bad decision? Is it an "art form that should be preserved", or is it a "barbaric" and "outdated" practice?

[poli]

I have been reading commentaries in El Pais, and believe me, there
are a lot of commentaries. They have more insight than I do regarding this. The prevailing opinion is that bullfighting is barabarous, and if that's
the reason for banning it, it's a good thing. This opinion is tinged with some doubts. Some see it as a possible rise of Catalan nationalism and
as a means of breaking away from united Spain.

There is a rise in Catalonian culture which is seen as nationalism. Parents
may choose to send their children to Catalan school where they are
taught in Catalan (I'm not positive about this, my understanding of some
articles is only about 80% but I think this is a fact) In my opinion, this
is a disservice to the students. I really think Castillian should be first
because it is a great international language and Catalan is comparitively
obscure. Holding on to the regional difference and language is good, but in my opinion, secondary.

I hate the bullfight but I also understand the pagentry and the national
identity associated with it. As an American, I see the advantage of a
united federation of states. Division makes us weak, and I think that
Spain is stronger united. My opinion in this case may be seen as fascist in current Spain because of Franco's opressive Spanish-first rule, and I'm no fascist.

That's the confusing point. If banning the bullfight is done for the patria
chica it's bad. If it's done as a act against barbarism is good.

[Perikles]

That's the confusing point. If banning the bullfight is done for the patria
chica it's bad. If it's done as a act against barbarism is good.I can't quite agree here. It does seem that the political move to assert a difference between Cataluña and the rest of Spain has played a part, but I would call this doing the right thing for the wrong reasons. I don't want to tread on anybody's toes here, but I once vowed never to visit Spain until this barbaric and disgraceful spectacle was abolished. Ironic, really, living in Tenerife, but one learns to compromise. I have never visited mainland Spain mainly for that reason. I think I am the only British person I know who has not visited mainland Spain. Perhaps now I could visit Cataluña. :)

[Jessica]

it's animal cruelty

A bullfight typically lasts about 20 minutes, and the bull is stabbed numerous times before the fatal blow delivered with a sword thrust between its shoulder blades.

[poli]

Yes I certainly agree that it is horrendous animal cruelty and I will not watch a bull fight. It is a remnant of ancient Rome and the battles of the gladiators. Slaughterhouses are also very cruel however. Of course there
is no glamor and pagentry at the slaugherhouse--just unspeakable cruelty, blood and death so that we may have hamburgers.

In the United States we have boxing which is also a form animal cruelty.

Many in the Spanish press see this banning as a politcal move against federal Spain. If it is, I'm against it. I don't think the balkanization of Spain is a good idea.

[Perikles]

In the United States we have boxing which is also a form animal cruelty. Theoretically, with boxing the boxers do have a choice whether they go into the ring or not. The bull does not.

[Jessica]

though it did say in other places the bull does not die. those places don't need to ban bullfighting. otherwise they should not kill the bull all the time in Cataluña (instead of banning bullfighting).

[pjt33]

Parents may choose to send their children to Catalan school where they are taught in Catalan (I'm not positive about this, my understanding of some articles is only about 80% but I think this is a fact)
Actually, in Catalonia parents don't have a choice: it's school in Catalan (well, or go private). In País Vasco there is a choice between Castilian or Basque schooling, and the takeup is roughly 50/50.

[Chris]

I think it would be okay if the bull was not tortured many times before it is killed. It's just that they stab it so many times without it dying. One blow that is fatal is more humane. I am man. I eat meat. I hunt animals. I have no qualms about a bull running over a guy if he chooses to be in the ring with it, but you shouldn't torture the animal before.

It's odd that I was just thinking of this today.

[CrOtALiTo]

I agree with the banned of that, because any animal should die in a deport or by the fancy of the people who blood hungry.

I don't agree with the die of the animals in any place and any place of this great world.

[irmamar]

Yes, they've been banned and I'm happy!! :) :) :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

And well, yes, there is a strong nationalist current and I can't find the opposite current, just this one (well, there is some but from the right-wing, which is not desired at all) and, in fact, Spanish speakers people feel a bit persecuted (although nationalists say that there isn't any problem), but as I am one of them, I feel I'm not comfortable here many times (I think I'll be able to move from here when I come to my retirement :rolleyes: ).

Catalonian is taught 100% at all schools (públicas o privadas), just foreigners schools (I think there are a couple in Barcelona) teach in their language and Catalonian. Spanish is compulsory as a second language: just two hours a week. Students study three hours Catalonian and two hours Spanish, but all the subjects are taught in Catalonian. Spanish government tried to introduce a third hour of Spanish study, but they weren't able to. But you won't find a school here where Spanish is used as what we call 'lengua vehicular' (language used to teach).

Lastly, Catalonian government is interested in spreading Catalonian in all fields, even when children play (http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2009/04/20/barcelona/1240256546.html).

Spain and Spanish are the worst here. A friend of mine told me that her son has gone to a football camp and in the former turn, which coincided with the World Cup, children weren't allowed (http://www.lavanguardia.es/politica/noticias/20100721/53968222867/prohiben-ver-la-final-de-la-roja-en-los-albergues-de-la-generalitat-joventut-holanda-sudafrica-giron.html) to watch the final because Spain played. This is not a lie, this is true. And much worse in the Basque Country: in a camp children were not only not allowed to watch the match, but they were told that Holland had won (http://www.20minutos.es/noticia/773051/41/)!!

Anyway, the origin of the bullfighting banning has not been from the Catalonian government, but from what we call an 'Iniciativa Legislativa Popular' o 'iniciativa ciudadana', where people hand in an amount of signatures to question anything or any law. There are many people against bullfighting in Spain and some association got enough signatures. So, nationalism has nothing to do with this topic. But some party wants to benefit from it and they're saying that the reason of this prohibition is exclusively nationalism and differences with Spain.

In Madrid, the same 'iniciativa (http://www.20minutos.es/noticia/777395/0/prohibicion/toros/cataluna/)' has been handed in, although I'm sure that the government will not even take it into account. :rolleyes:

Perikles, in Canarias bullfighting has been forbidden for 19 years ;). And if you come here, please, let me know :) . But I think you'll have to wait until January 2012 :impatient: . Anyway, in my city there isn't a bullring, even. ;)

[Perikles]

Perikles, in Canarias bullfighting is forbidden since 19 years ago ;). And if you come here, please, let me know :) . But I think you'll have to wait until January 2012 :impatient: . Anyway, in my city there isn't a bullring, even. ;)Gracias Irma, es muy amable. :kiss:

PD Quieres corregir *is forbidden since 19 years ago ? :banghead::banghead::banghead: :)

[irmamar]

Gracias Irma, es muy amable. :kiss:

PD Quieres corregir *is forbidden since 19 years ago ? :banghead::banghead::banghead: :)

Ya tá. :D

[ROBINDESBOIS]

Well, I don´t want to confront anybody. My opinion is that bulfignting is not that terrible, I only went to a corrida once, I didn´t like it, but some people like it, so let them go, after all the bull is not the meekest animal, get in front of it in a field and see what it is able to do to you without bothering it. I agree that the agony shouldn´t be kept for long. Anyway, at the end of the day they finish in our casserole, with bulfight corridas or without.
But, I don´t critizice the fact that they have banned it. And if there is sb who loves attending corridas, they can always come to Madrid, it´s not that far , anyway.

[irmamar]

But I think that it is so terrible that you wouldn't imagine what a bull suffers. I come from Andalucía, I have had, as a little girl, a 'banderilla' in my hands, and I can tell you that they are not precisely small. I've been taken to bullfights as a child, and I assure that I have never liked and we, my brothers and I, complained a lot when we were taken there (we have always loved animals).

We are omnivorous, we eat meat, but we are hunters, not merciless beings. Our ancestors used to give thanks to the spirit of the animals they hunted, they even used to paint the animals on the walls of the cave they used to live.

A lion, a tiger are not meek animals, but not even in the circus they are treated with so much cruelty (I should add that circus with animals are forbidden in my city, too) until to theird death.

You can read about the bull's suffering ("el sufrimiento del toro, paso a paso") here (http://www.plataformasinc.es/index.php/esl/Reportajes/La-cruda-realidad-del-toro-de-lidia).

[Perikles]

You can read about the bull's suffering ("el sufrimiento del toro, paso a paso") here (http://www.plataformasinc.es/index.php/esl/Reportajes/La-cruda-realidad-del-toro-de-lidia).Thanks for the link


José Enrique Zaldívar, el investigador y veterinario que lleva tres años estudiando este tema, considera que el toro “sufre una enorme agonía durante la lidia”. Además de provocar lesiones anatómicas como son la rotura de músculos (más de 20), de ligamentos, tendones, vasos, y nervios, a causa de los instrumentos empleados por los toreros, también se producen fracturas de estructuras vertebrales, de costillas y de sus cartílagos de prolongación.
Zaldívar explica que las puyas insertadas en el animal durante la lidia le limitan su movilidad, ya que afectan al plexo braquial, que se ocupa de la inervación del tercio anterior. “Como consecuencia de las puyas el toro puede perder entre un 8 y un 18% de su volumen sanguíneo”, precisa el veterinario.
La estocada le provocará la muerte por una profusa hemorragia en la cavidad torácica. “En sólo el 20% de las ocasiones la espada va a seccionar los grandes vasos del tórax, lo que haría la agonía más corta”, comenta Zaldívar.


My opinion is that bulfignting is not that terrible, Really?

[poli]

Es mojigatería condenar la corrida de toros mientras los mataderos siguen matando día y noche. Me parece que el espactáculo de la corrida de toros es algo primitivo como los rictuales Romano y Incaico de antaño y algo auctóctono de España, pero no creo que es menos cruel que la crianza de los animales para el propósito de matarlos que ocurre por todo el mundo.

La corrida de toros no es nada que apruebo. Sin embargo veo la hipocracía de la gente vehementamente en contra de la práctica. Me
da recuedos a la gente de PETA que tiran pintura roja a las mujeres que
llevan abrigos de bison mientras los que tiran la pintura llevan zapatos
de cuero. En mi opinión tienen otra agenda que tiene poco de ver con la bondad a los animales.

[JPablo]

Ver los toros desde la barrera. Observar cierto acontecimiento con la tranquilidad del que es extraño a él o puede desentenderse de él.

Eso dice Moliner. Comparto la opinión de todos porque aunque puedan parecer dispares, viene a ser la misma.

Creo que resulta más fácil verlo desde la distancia. Cuando era niño, cuando empezaba la corrida de toros televisada, apagábamos el televisor y esperábamos que el toro le diera una cornada al "torero" que era un "chulo en traje de luces".

Ahora no le deseo eso a ningún torero. No se lo puedo desear si tengo la cara dura de comer carne de ternera, de pollo, salmón... o lo que sea. De hecho, hasta un tomatito tiene su "corazoncito" o su "alma"... si somos conscientes del "élan vital" del que habla Bergson...

Yo era vegetariano... y, ¿acaso no sufren las acelgas?
¿Suena como si estuviera de cachondeo? Bueno, puede que me ría un poquito de mí mismo y de todos, pero me acuerdo del poema de Rubén Darío, Los Motivos del Lobo: ¿La sangre? Yo vi más de un cazador sobre su caballo mancharse de sangre, herir, torturar a los animales de nuestro Señor... y no era por hambre, que iban a cazar. (Cito de memoria, pero creo que poco me equivoco de los versos de Darío)... como el oso hace, como el jabalí, que para vivir, tiene que matar...

La cantidad de matanzas que el "homo sapiens sapiens" lleva a cabo en el planeta son algo más que crueles... No hace mucho algún grupo taurino mandaba por ahí un e-mail con una descripción visual y nada 'barbárica' de cómo los civilizados daneses teñían los mares de rojo, de sangre, al masacrar a mansalva una cantidad de fauna marina...

El ritual de la corrida de toro, la crueldad, el arte, la barbarie, puede ser algo superfluo o algo que debería cancelarse... pero desde mi punto de vista es algo que tiene mucha más validez que muchas otras prácticas 'civilizadas'.

Como bien dice Poli, parece más una maniobra política que otra cosa. Si los que se oponen con tanto ardor a "la fiesta taurina" o la así llamada "fiesta nacional", investigaran de donde viene la "carne de vaca" "de pollo" o de lo que sea, y cómo se crían a los animales, que están comiendo cada día, creo que se preocuparían por los problemas reales que tiene este planeta...

Aquí os paso un link, que puede ser de interés...
http://www.foodincmovie.com/

Y eso es sólo un aspecto. ¿Qué pasa con el tema del 'hambre' en el mundo? Me parece más crucial y prioritario que los métodos y maneras de matar a un toro. Sí, si voy a comer carne de toro, preferiría que lo mataran con el menor sufrimiento... pero, ¿has sido tú toro una de tus últimas vidas? ¿Quién nos dice a nosotros que el toro se siente como un dios masoquista siendo inmolado frente al público enardecido y entusiasmado... y se siente como el amo del cotarro, antes de dejar este mundo cruel? (Una vez más, claro, soy sarcástico, pero también lo digo en serio.) ¿Quiénes somos nosotros para decidir o saber? Bueno, claro, cada uno tiene derecho y el deber de expresar lo que siente y considera que es más correcto, y en una sociedad democrática la voz del pueblo debe terminar haciéndose oír... Pero... ¿y las manipulaciones?

"La verdad os hará libres", no porque lo diga el evangelio según San Juan, sino porque resulta que así es.

El reto está en conocer la verdad. Me parece bien que "el pueblo" catalán no quiera toros. Si esa es su decisión, no lo voy a negar.
Pero me parece mal que un tema como LA DROGA (muchísimo más cruel, muchísimo más, no se toque, o se toque de forma muy ineficaz.)
Me parece mal que un tema como el DESCONOCIMIENTO absoluto de LOS DERECHOS HUMANOS, se deje de lado como problema.
Me parece mal que un tema como la EDUCACIÓN, se mantega totalmente en un marasmo de ignorancia y falta de eficacia...
Y me parece todavía mucho peor que ni se mencionen problemas como EL ABUSO PSIAQUIÁTRICO generalizado, así como el de las empresas farmacéuticas que hacen billones a base de "medicinas" que aumentan el riesgo de suicidio en los que las ingestan...

Cierto, los toros pueden ser un problema, puede ser cruel, pero toda la polémica de los medios y las leyes no es más que una cortina de humo para problemas peores... ¿sabíais que el número, la cifra de ESCLAVOS en pleno siglo XXI es más elevada que en el siglo XIX?

Bueno, no tenía intención de soltar una arenga... pero yo no soy de los que les gusta ver los toros desde la barrera... hacen falta más agallas para agarrar al toro por los cuernos... si a la gente no se la despistara tanto de los verdaderos problemas y tuviera medios y conocimiento para abordar los verdaderos problemas de sus vidas... yo creo que todos viviríamos mejor... quizá los toros quedarían en el pasado, como una historia legendaria similar a los sacrificios humanos aztecas... o la matanza del cerdo en Castilla...

En fin, se me ha ido el tiempo y ahora me ha pillado el toro (Pillarle el toro a alguien = Echársele el tiempo encima).

Puedo estar equivocado... pero como decía mi vieja profesora del único año de latín formal que hice: "No importa errar en lo secundario, si hemos acertado en lo principal"... así que, por favor, que nadie me eche el toro...
:)

[poli]

For interested native English speakers this article in today's New York Times covers the political and economic and moral positions involved in the Catalonian decision nearly as well as El Pais did and more concisely.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/29/world/europe/29spain.html?_r=1&ref=world

[CrOtALiTo]

Well, I don´t want to confront anybody. My opinion is that bulfignting is not that terrible, I only went to a corrida once, I didn´t like it, but some people like it, so let them go, after all the bull is not the meekest animal, get in front of it in a field and see what it is able to do to you without bothering it. I agree that the agony shouldn´t be kept for long. Anyway, at the end of the day they finish in our casserole, with bulfight corridas or without.
But, I don´t critizice the fact that they have banned it. And if there is sb who loves attending corridas, they can always come to Madrid, it´s not that far , anyway.

It is terrible man.
When you kill to an animal, you become in a killer.

I am happy with the new laws.:)