Aave

[laepelba]

Interesting, Irma, that you mention that. When I was in Buenos Aires, the professors taught us the voseo form in writing. We were not supposed to write "tú puedes" but "vos podés". And that affects all of the present indicative verbs and all of the 2nd person positive imperative verbs. Even our textbooks were written that way. I wonder if that is standard in all Argentine universities or if it is something that has to be discussed school by school or even program by program...

[ceri]

Hi, Poli, about the use of verb to be, interesting Observations you have.
A good friend of mine writes rap lyrics and actually raps quite well. We used to have some debates over the 'to be' topic.
It seems in AAVE, there is specific grammatical categories to express time span/duration of actions.
Expressions such as I sick, he coming, she going state point-in-time actions. Whether the action is present or past, it doesn't matter; but it's not ongoing. (similar function of the simple past/present tense in standard English?)
Expressions such as I be sick, he be coming, the dog be at Aunt Sarah's house express duration. the dog be at Aunt Sarah's house means that the dog went to Aunt Sarah's house (an hour ago) and continues to stay there. (similar function of the present perfect tense in standard English?)

Jess

In some AAVE the use of the verb to be is very different and quite simplified. It is sometimes left out, because the verb to be can be implied without using it. I believe a form the the subjunctive is used. Example: Charleston hot in the summer? Yes Charleston be hot in the summer.


Where's the dog? Where the dog
He's sitting under the table? He sittin under the table.
If the dog is missing for an hour, and there is some concern:
Where's the dog? Where the dog be at?
The dog is at Aunt Sarah's house. The dog be at Aunt Sarah's house.

I wonder if 'vos' is something definitely Argentine or it's also commonly used in all latin american countries, too!
Though an Argentine by birth, I've spent all my life in Asia and thus can hardly speak Spanish. I've just started to learn the language half a year ago when I planned to spend one year or two in my parents' native land. Anyways back in Hong Kong, my first Spanish teacher is from Spain whom I still practice my Spanish with on a regular basis.
I don't know if it annoys or amuses him each time to hear me say 'vos no sos mejor que yo', jaja.

Jess

Interesting, Irma, that you mention that. When I was in Buenos Aires, the professors taught us the voseo form in writing. We were not supposed to write "tú puedes" but "vos podés". And that affects all of the present indicative verbs and all of the 2nd person positive imperative verbs. Even our textbooks were written that way. I wonder if that is standard in all Argentine universities or if it is something that has to be discussed school by school or even program by program...

[JPablo]

@Lou Ann, I believe the "voseo" must be standarized all over the place in Argentine (and maybe more places) I take Ookami can confirm that... and probably Ceri (Jess)... :)

@Ceri. Hi, while you address Poli, I must say I am kind of fascinated about this AAVE language... (Different as it may be, it reminds me again the book I was mentioned the other day to Gina, The professor and the mad man, the making of the OED... The Senior Editor of the OED (Murray) was quite a boy in terms of knowing fluently a number of languages... (immmmpressive)... but one of the things mentioned in the novel is that he was able to speak and understand all the different Scottish dialects with unbelievable precision... (I read the book quite a while ago, and I don't remember if it was Scottish, or just English...) But the point is that one has to have the ability to 'duplicate' any kind of register and be able to be that 'nationality' in order to 'speak' that languange or that lingo... :)

[ceri]

I just re-read the whole thread again and have thoroughly enjoyed the different aspects of discussions you guys have here. I'd like to share my 2 cents' worth in aspects of Aave itself.
The subject's definition itself is not without controversy. Personally I think it's a variation of American English, with its own distinctive grammatical rules,categories and expressions, a long history (contact with those African languages and the Caribbean creoles), a rich and vital literature(jazz, rap and other pop culture).

Firstly, Aave isn't really a general vernacular spoken by all African-Americans, rather, it is a historically-grounded linguistic variation whose features may be shared by black, white, latino or even Asian speakers of English in America(I know many Asian guys who has rich Aaev vocab);
Secondly, I don't think it'd be necessary to teach subjects Aave in any schools due to obvious mutual intelligibility between Aave and non-Aave speakers.
Thirdly, I'd like to point out one interesting feature that Aave shares with the Spanish language--double negative. In Aave, as in Spanish, or even in old or middle-age English, the double negative is perfectly grammatically correct.
In Aave: I don't wanna do nothing!
en espoñal: Yo no quiero hacer nada!

Neat, isn't it? =D

Jess

[irmamar]

Thanks for your opinion, ceri. A good point of view. :thumbsup: :)

[poli]

Ceri it has been discussed in some threads prior to you joining that vos
is used elsewhere in Latin America. Rusty has spent some time in Central
America and has stated that it is used in some countries in that region.
Uruguay shares the rioplatense culture (at least in Montevideo) so I assume it's used there as well.

There is variance in AAVE depending on region. Much of the variance has to to with pronuciation, vocabulary and social class. An African American from New York may have trouble understanding heavily-accented New Orleans AAVE. So would you.


Anyway, African Americans do not have the patent on double negatives.
It is part of daily speech among nearly all Americans. White people and black people both use it for emphasis and to vary the way they speak. Others use who use it exclusively do so because they never learned what they were taught in school. These people, unless they are start-up entrepeneurs may find it difficult to succeed in the professional world. This is an arugment in favor of teaching standard English in schools.

[JPablo]

Very interesting... the thing on the double negative... (Ceri, Poli...) Pero yo no quiero dejar de aprender nada de lo que se presente... ;)

[laepelba]

I'm just now getting back to this thread. There is another thread ( http://forums.tomisimo.org/showthread.php?t=8240 ) where I started a discussion about the use of vos and there are some good links included there as well.

[laepelba]

I just saw this article related to Ebonics: http://www.economist.com/node/21009971?fsrc=nwl

[JPablo]

That is an interesting article indeed. It reminded me a bit, how Spanish was born. It was born from "Vulgar Latin" and it was the "non-standard" "popular variation".
Then again, the Mass Media nowadays I believe it makes more difficult the "fragmentation" of languages, but rather the contrary... despite the incredible amount of "dialects" in all the languages.

The fact that criminals (drug dealers and others) have a "code" language is not new at all... In Spain "Diccionario de Jerga" covers quite a bit of a lexicon that is unknown to the uninitiated... It is similar with Lunfardo... but, again, many words and expressions from that 'register' move into the normal stream of the language too... and I take it is good to know as much as you want to know... If you like the people who uses these "modalities". Like one of my friends who decided to learn Catalonian, like me, on a voluntary basis, said (quoting an old saw): "El saber no ocupa lugar".
The great, bit K... KNOWLEDGE! :)

[vita32]

I guess if I listen long enough I would be able to understand the lyrics of some rap music because most of the same lines are repeated several times in the song. :)