Main clause and dependent clause have the same subject...

[laepelba]

The instructions for this exercise are: Escribe la forma apropiada del presente de subjuntivo de los verbos entre paréntesis. Obviously, I was supposed to just change each verb to subjunctive and write it in the blank....

The two sentences I have questions about are as follows:

#3) No puedes entrar en un probador a menos que ______________ (tener) la llave.

#7) Amelia te llama en caso de que ella ______________ (necesitar) tu ayuda.

Now, immediately (immediately!) before this exercise there is a side note that if the subject in the main clause is the same as the subject in the dependent clause, the subjunctive is not used, rather the infinitive is used.

It seems to me that in #3, the subject of both parts of the sentence is tú. And in #7 the subject of both parts of the sentence is Amelia (o ella).

When I checked the answers in the back of the book, they give tengas and necesite. I thought they should be infinitive, tener and necesitar, even though the directions clearly say to change them to the subjunctive.

So, WHY should they be subjunctive? Do I not understand the rule? Or do I not understand the true subjects of the parts of these sentences?

Thanks!!

[JPablo]

¡Mmm! Not sure about the "rule" of your book, but the answers (subjunctive) are correct.

You are including a "condition" something that may or may not be... 3 "You'd not be able to go into the fitting room, unless you had the key" "No podrías entrar en el probador a menos que tuvieras la llave" "You cannot go into the fitting room unless you have the key" (In English I take this is correct. In Spanish is "unless you had the key".)

In the case of the Amelia, the same, "in case" - given the hypothetical possibility that she may need help.

At any rate, the Spanish is totally clear to me... (I am not sure about how the "rule" is expressed in your book... but I would recheck that...)

[Rusty]

The subjunctive is used in the secondary clause because of the adverbial phrases that introduce the clause. Your textbook is throwing you some curves.

There is a list of the adverbial phrases which are ALWAYS followed by the subjunctive here (http://users.ipfw.edu/jehle/courses/subjadv.htm).

[JPablo]

Hey Rusty, GREAT LINK! :applause: :applause: :applause:

[laepelba]

Ugh!! That's almost as complicated as the stupid English language ... an exception to the exception................ :(

[laepelba]

Okay, so this is starting to make a little more sense to me now. Looking at Rusty's link, is the main difference between the "conjunctions" and the "corresponding prepositions" the "que"?

So, in my second example, could it be either of the following:
- Amelia te llama en caso de que ella necesite tu ayuda.
OR
- Amelia te llama en caso de necesitar tu ayuda.
:?:

My book uses the following example when pointing out that you must use the infinitive when the subject in the main clause is the same as the subject in the dependent clause:
- Hago ejercicio para estar en forma.
But could it also be:
- Hago ejercicio para que (yo) esté en forma. :?:
And, does that change the meaning of the sentence?

[aleCcowaN]

So, in my second example, could it be either of the following:
- Amelia te llama en caso de que ella necesite tu ayuda.
OR
- Amelia te llama en caso de necesitar tu ayuda.
:?:Both OK

My book uses the following example when pointing out that you must use the infinitive when the subject in the main clause is the same as the subject in the dependent clause:
- Hago ejercicio para estar en forma.
But could it also be:
- Hago ejercicio para que (yo) esté en forma. :?:
And, does that change the meaning of the sentence?The second one must include "yo" and sounds very weird because "estar en forma" is clear enough:

Hago ejercicio para estar en forma.
Hace ejercicio para estar en forma.
Hacemos ejercicio para estar en forma.
Hagan ejercicio para estar en forma.

I suppose the reason is "hacer ejercicio para estar en forma" is a set concept (I'm trying to remember, but I think "estar" has to do with it).

When something else is involved ...

Aliméntate bien para que estés en forma/estar en forma.
Mi novia quiere que haga ejercicio para que esté en forma/estar en forma. :rolleyes:

[laepelba]

The second one must include "yo" and sounds very weird because "estar en forma" is clear enough:

Hago ejercicio para estar en forma.
Hace ejercicio para estar en forma.
Hacemos ejercicio para estar en forma.
Hagan ejercicio para estar en forma.

I suppose the reason is "hacer ejercicio para estar en forma" is a set concept (I'm trying to remember, but I think "estar" has to do with it).

When something else is involved ...

Aliméntate bien para que estés en forma/estar en forma.
Mi novia quiere que haga ejercicio para que esté en forma/estar en forma. :rolleyes:

I'm sure it sounds weird, but I wanted to see if the "que" in that sentence is what triggered the use of the subjunctive as opposed the sentence before it.... So it's all about the "que"....

Could these following two sentences be somewhat equivalent?
- Llegué a casa antes de que (yo) sienta mala.
OR
- Llegué a casa antes de sentir mala.
:?:

[aleCcowaN]

I'm sure it sounds weird, but I wanted to see if the "que" in that sentence is what triggered the use of the subjunctive as opposed the sentence before it.... So it's all about the "que"....

Could these following two sentences be somewhat equivalent?
- Llegué a casa antes de que (yo) sienta mala.
OR
- Llegué a casa antes de sentir mala.
:?:Yes, "que" announces subjunctive within that structure.

Llegué a casa antes de que me sintiera mal.
Llegué a casa antes de sentirme mal.

But better

Me sentí mal después de llegar a casa (not, "después de que (yo) llegara")

imperfect subjunctive, are you sure you want to ford that stream now?

[laepelba]

Yes, "que" announces subjunctive within that structure.

Llegué a casa antes de que me sintiera mal.
Llegué a casa antes de sentirme mal.

But better

Me sentí mal después de llegar a casa (not, "después de que (yo) llegara")

imperfect subjunctive, are you sure you want to ford that stream now?

Actually, it makes a lot of sense to use the imperfect form of the subjunctive there ... I missed that, because I was so focused on the subjunctive vs. the infinitive. BUT ... the past/imperfect forms of the subjunctive are in the next chapter of my book, so although I can't really conjugate them yet, I have a very vague understanding of them, and understand why you want a past tense there.... THANKS, Alec!!

[aleCcowaN]

You are very welcome, Lou Ann!

I always encourage people to ask about everything and be daring in intellectual fields. Everything but Spanish subjunctive that is like those fowls that become stiffed if cooked on much heat and need a lot of time in a mild atmosphere to become tender.

Learning subjunctive is like learning how to ride your bike. You won't save a lot of falls and some scratches, and you can't learn it all in just one day. That's the difference between acquiring information and acquiring skills. Information requires a lot of boxes to be stored, and adults have those boxes. Skills require the boxes to change their shapes and that's pretty a horse of a different colour.

[laepelba]

I absolutely realize that learning to effectively and accurately use the subjunctive will be a long and possibly difficult road because of our mostly ignorance of it in English. I'm looking forward to the journey, though .... it seems SO interesting and rich! Thanks for your encouragement and your help!! :)