Cultural differences or just uncultured?

[JPablo]

Yes, I understand the complexities of the matter...

Yet, if you are having or want to have a "high-ground" discussion, well, better have people who understand your language around... (and tell the other guys, "sorry, this discussion is exclusively in Euskera..." :rolleyes:

I have been unable to talk Catalonian (when I was a kid) but able to understand everybody around, and was not feeling excluded, except when I wanted to say something, I would feel incapable to say it in Catalonian... then from 14 on, my command of this language was good enough to talk rather fluently... although my literacy level (writing mostly) is very poor, I can read and talk without any major difficulty.

At any rate, every situation will require judgment as to what would be the best... you can tell the guy who doesn't know the language some words to acknowledge his presence and/or whatever... every situation will be its own, but as long as you are trying to be helpful and your ATTITUDE shows that genuinely, any problem arising from that can be solved in a split of a second... or maybe a few minutes...
When there is a will there is a way... as the saying goes... ;) :)

[irmamar]

I think that when someone is going to work or live in another country, the first thing to do is learning the language spoken (official or not) in that country.

My husband, who is a teacher, had a Chinese as a pupil a couple of years ago. He used to say that he was like 'a piece of furniture'. He didn't make any effort to learn either Spanish or Catalonian. And there he was, doing nothing, without friends, spending his time in the classroom without understand anything. At last my husband tried to find a web page in Chinese, so he could read something, but the boy could explain in some way which I have never understood that that page was Mandarin and he spoke Cantonese. I felt pity for that boy when he talked to me about him. It's very useful to learn a language when you're going to live in another country; communication is essential for a human being.

Furthermore, recently I've been told about something that happened to a friend of mine who is looking after an old lady who had an embolism. That woman couldn't speak at all and, suddenly, one day she began to speak, but she started to speak Spanish instead of Catalonian, her mother tongue. Studies said that a second language and following ones learnt after two or three years old and later, as adults, is stored in another area of the brain, different to the mother tongue (complete bilingual people store two languages in the same area). So, that woman was able to speak something because she had another language stored in her brain in another area not so much damaged. That's something to take into account for those people who don't want to learn a second language. ;)

[chileno]

I think that when someone is going to work or live in another country, the first thing to do is (to) learn/learning the language spoken (official or not) in of that country.

My husband, who is a teacher, had a Chinese (as a) pupil a couple of years ago. He used to say that he was like 'a piece of furniture'. He didn't make any effort to learn/in learning either Spanish or Catalonian. And there he was, doing nothing, without friends, spending his time in the classroom without understanding anything. At last my husband tried to find a web page in Chinese, so he could read something, but the boy could explain in some way which I have never understood that that page was Mandarin and he spoke Cantonese. I felt pity for that boy when he talked to me about him. It's very useful to learn a language when you're going to live in another country; communication is essential for a human being.

Furthermore, recently I've been told about something that happened to a friend of mine who is looking after an old lady who had an embolism. That woman couldn't speak at all and, suddenly, one day she began to speak, but she started to speak Spanish instead of Catalonian, her mother tongue. Studies said that a second language and following ones learnt after two or three years old and later, as adults, is stored in another area of the brain, different to the mother tongue (complete bilingual people store two languages in the same area). So, that woman was able to speak something because she had another language stored in her brain in another area not so much damaged. That's something to take into account for those people who don't want to learn a second language. ;)

¿Qué? :wicked:

[pjt33]

A ver. "To learn" o "learning" están bien en registros informales; "to learn" es mejor en los formales.

"...the language spoken in that country" es correcto, y puesto que Irma deja claro que está pensando en la realidad y no en la teoría me parece mejor que "...the language of that country". *"...the language spoken of that country" está mal.

"...a Chinese pupil" sí que debe ser así. La alternativa es "a Chinese boy as a pupil".

"He didn't make any effort to learn" está bien; *"he didn't make any effort in learning" me suena raro.

"without understanding anything" sí que necesita el sufijo.

[chileno]

A ver. "To learn" o "learning" están bien en registros informales; "to learn" es mejor en los formales.

"...the language spoken in that country" es correcto, y puesto que Irma deja claro que está pensando en la realidad y no en la teoría me parece mejor que "...the language of that country". *"...the language spoken of that country" está mal.

"...a Chinese pupil" sí que debe ser así. La alternativa es "a Chinese boy as a pupil".

"He didn't make any effort to learn" está bien; *"he didn't make any effort in learning" me suena raro.

"without understanding anything" sí que necesita el sufijo.

I forgot to cross out "spoken", rather make it clear as to the usage... :/

[Jessicake]

It's very important to learn the dominant language of the country you are living in. There are few opportunities for success when you can't properly communicate with most of the population. However, that's a personal thing. It's rude to tell people not to speak a language just because it's foreign to you.

I personally don't mind other people speaking languages I don't understand. Unless it's done for the sole purpose of excluding me, that's pretty rude!

[JPablo]

I agree with you, Jessicake. :)

[CrOtALiTo]

It's very important to learn the dominant language of the country you are living in. There are few opportunities for success when you can't properly communicate with most of the population. However, that's a personal thing. It's rude to tell people not to speak a language just because it's foreign to you.

I personally don't mind other people speaking languages I don't understand. Unless it's done for the sole purpose of excluding me, that's pretty rude!

I'm agree quite with your commentary, but sometimes in some countries the second language isn't very valued.

[maravilloso]

I worked with a woman who said, "talk American" (instead of speak English) to Spanish speakers when they called her on the phone. That's how stupid she was. When I became her supervisor, I fired her.

I wish I could have done that:D Instead that manager ended up firing me. I just think that people should speak they language they are most comfortable speaking; but I also think we as Americans should expand our knowledge and learn another language. I feel that if we try and speak to them in their native that they would be willing to do the same for us (Americans).

[Cloudgazer]

The other day at work I was talking to the people who clean our office and they were Hispanic. So naturally we were speaking in spanish to each other about a comic strip I hung up (which was in Spanish). The manager that sits in the cubical across from mine told me that "Spanish people" need to speak "our" language not theirs or they need to go back to where they came from. I sort of just stared at him and told him they have a right to speak their own language. I was shocked, offende, and embrassed that he said this in from of the girl I was talking to.

Why is it that some Americans feel this way. I am American and I don't act that way or think that way. Is it just cultural differences or rem being uncultured? That was extremely rude and prejudiced behavior shown by the manager. My first internal reaction would've been, "Shove it up yours, jerk!" I don't know a lot of people who would be as brazenly crass and outspoken as that manager, but I've met some who unfortunately hold the core of his view privately.

In the end, I attribute it to fear stemming from ignorance. Aren't most "we vs. they" divisions started and maintained from this? He's probably fearful, whether he knows it or not, because reality is challenging his notion of how he wants life to be. And how he wants or expects life to be has, in large part, been passed down through his cultural programming and reinforced in the groups he regularly associates with by choice.

This guy's world is changing around him (the Spanish-speaking people and their ways are coming!!). It refuses to conform to his strongly held expectations and he doesn't like it. In fact, he fears it, and so much so that he is angry about it and lashes out against it. Not that he isn't responsible for growing and becoming more aware, becoming a more loving human being, but this is a major challenge for the world in general. We can see it playing out all around the globe. Until he can come to a place where he can let go of the fear and bigotry (or he's forced to outwardly behave in a more compassionate way, which may or may not help him solve his hate) he'll probably deal out more of the same given similar circumstances.

I've had to work diligently with my older relatives to make headway on even a portion of their negative attitudes toward the Latino members of our community. Some progress has been made, but for the most part they still cling to their old habitual thought processes. They just feel more comfortable being that way and their social situations typically allow them to maintain their prejudices. My earliest experiences with Latino folk, boys who attended school with me, were mostly very unpleasant, full of belligerence and violence. This actually pushed me away from wanting to learn Spanish or exploring Latino culture during my youth. When I looked back on it years later, I believe I saw where the boys behavior primarily came from, feeling excluded and denigrated by a suburban/rural WASP society and working from the examples their fathers provided of anger toward the injustices of the local situation. This type of thing is a vicious circle and until some refuse to participate, it survives and becomes more entrenched on both 'sides'. I feel those perpetrating the injustice fully have the obligation to stop, but we may be able to help ourselves by looking and recognizing where their very human attitudes come from and not fueling the same inside ourselves as we fight for respect and equality.

I'm very glad you challenged that bigot and stuck up for yourself and the cleaning staff. I've worked as a janitor and known many others. They so deserve our thanks for what they do. And you might have planted a seed that will allow that manager to recognize the hatefulness of his behavior.

[Luna Azul]

My native language is Spanish but I live in the USA and am an American citizen. I speak English moderately well.

In my experience I've found that it's terribly important to speak the language of the country where you live, for a lot of reasons, including visits to doctors, lawyers and other businesses where it's necessary to understand and be understood.

I understand why the Americans, including me, get upset when immigrants have refused, literally, to learn English. There are places where things have gone as far as teachers being forced to learn Spanish so they can teach children in school. http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2007/08/teachers_must_s.html

For those, like me, who did things the right way, it's really annoying when I call my bank and a machine gives a lot of options, including speaking Spanish; or having groceries and other consumer products mandated to be bilingual. It's ridiculous! since no other country demands that their citizens learn a foreign language to make the transition for immigrants easier. It is as if we had no national identity or history and traditions.

I still love my beautiful language, Spanish, and I see nothing improper when natural Spanish speakers converse in their native language. Of course I do that. What is offensive is that the entire social foundations of the US are being torn down to accomodate Spanish speaking people.
:cool:

[Elaina]

I actually applaud you Luna Azul, not many people do the "right thing" as you say.

BUT...our country was founded by immigrants and as they used to say "a melting pot" where there are people from all over the world that are trying to live here "in the pursuit of happiness".

People have come and are still coming to the U.S. in search of ...
-a better life
-a better future
-a life away from persecution
-a life away from torture
-a life away from hunger and poverty

Many of these people can only think of working and working hard to support themselves and any family they might have left in their country. I think there is a big difference between arriving in a foreign country as a child or your teens as opposed to being middle-aged or elderly. Many of these middle-aged or elderly cannot learn a new language except for a few words. Don't think that because you have learned English that it is just as easy for other people to do it. Don't get angry because the bank or the grocery store has bilingual ads or the bank line gives you options in Spanish. Be thankful you don't it and be glad that it is there for those who do need it.

Our nation has many colors, many faces and many roots...this is what makes our country unique. Our values are still high and our doors are still open for whomever wants to be cuddled and nurtured by our Statue of Liberty.

I think the problem is that people who get bothered by people speaking a different language are bigots and/or maybe just plain paranoid or egotistical to think they are so important that the people around them want to waste their time speaking about them.

Those of us who speak both English and Spanish should try to help people that don't and encourage them but also accept them if they (for some reason) can't learn English.

:twocents:

[Luna Azul]

I actually applaud you Luna Azul, not many people do the "right thing" as you say.


Thank you, dear Elaina :), most generous of you.. ;)

By the way, I didn't come to the US as a child, not even as a teenager :p

I couldn't agree with you more.. this is the country of opportunities. Our beautiful America. So, I wonder... with that many immigrants from all over the world, with all those different colors, roots, and of course languages... why is it that the ads are just "bilingual" instead of "Polylingual"? You know... talking about "equal opportunities..." and all that.. :D

Maybe it's because the others did bother to learn English and did not force the American teachers to learn Chinese, Polish, German or japanese -just to name a few- so that they (the teachers, of course) could teach Math, Geography, Science to their children -not their elders-?

Just wondering, dear Elaina.. Mi mente se pregunta y mis pensamientos viajan con el viento... y vuelan y vuelan... :butterfly:

[chileno]

I am with Luna Azul. Although Elaina has some good points, most of those could be applied to some people, certainly a great minority.

I know for a fact that most people can achieve a certain level of English especially in the workplace and for most essential tasks such as buying grocery etc... and those are exactly the ones to blame for being lazy, because if they could achieve that level, easily they could've reached farther... ;)

The ones that really don't speak any are the ones that are too afraid to try that practically nullify themselves just by thinking of speaking English, and those are really the great minority.

[poli]

En EEUU hay un gran aumento de hispanos recien llegados. Poner
mensajes en los dos idiomas es la cosa correcta hacer para acomodar la población hispanoparlante. Muestra buena hospitalidad y es bueno para negocio. Todos sabemos que los hijos de los imigrantes que viven en EEUU van a hablar inglés con o sin mensajes bilingües. No veo ningún peligro que vamos a perder inglés. En el futuro, si el influje de imigrantes hispanos desminuye, volvemos a usar mensajes públicos in inglés nada más.

A propósito: En los últimos años de siglo 19 muchos pueblos usaron alemán mucho (hasta en las escuelas) para acomodar la cantidad de alemanes recién llegados.

EEUU no es el único pais que usa mensajes multilenguales (is that a word:thinking:). Por ejemplo, todos los bancos ofrecen servicios en inglés y otros idiomas dondequiera que yo había ido.

[Elaina]

Aren't we being a bit harsh when we say or imply that all "spanish-speaking people that don't speak english" are lazy? And why are we only "nitpicking" on the spanish speaking people? Some....not the majority....don't speak it because of laziness.

As an interpreter I see the need for a lot of languages for a lot of people that don't speak English.....that is why we have specialized agencies that provide interpreters for people of many, many different countries.

The reason there is a lot of Spanish being spoken in the U.S. is because we have a lot of spanish-speakers here.....and we are so close to Mexico.

I agree that I for one was to move to another country whose language was not English, I would most definitely try to learn their language.

My :twocents:

[wayfarer]

The manager that sits in the cubical across from mine told me that "Spanish people" need to speak "our" language not theirs or they need to go back to where they came from.

I am currently learning Spanish, so I will try to reply in Spanish, your manager surely would say that I'm wasting my time ... as usual corrections and hints are very welcome:

*************

Bien, en muchos países avanzados el idioma inglés es muy extendido, muchas personas pueden aprenderlo en la esquela, su el web, durante algún viaje, y principalmente en los ambientes de trabajo, no es dificil manejar con el sólo conocimiento del lenguaje inglés. Probablemente tu manager tene razón, ingleses y americanos no tienen mucha necesidad de aprender otros lenguajes, viceversa por los otros pueblos es muy importante aprender el inglés.

Esto no expresa que el español es inútil, el territorio donde se habla español es mas grande: un extranjero que va en España o en la America del Sur y habla solo inglés probablemente puede manejar, pero un extranjero que también habla español tiene vida muy mas fácil.

[Caballero]

Realmente estoy feliz que mucha gente en los EEUU habla castellano, porque significa que puedo practicar castellano más fáclmente y frecuentememte.

[wrholt]

...
Bien, en muchos países avanzados el idioma inglés es muy extendido, muchas personas pueden aprenderlo en la esquela escuela, su en/por el web, durante algún viaje, y principalmente en los ambientes de trabajo, no es dificil manejarse con el sólo sólo/solo/solamente el conocimiento del lenguaje inglés. Probablemente tu manager jefe tene tiene razón, los ingleses y los (norte)americanos no tienen mucha necesidad de aprender otros lenguajes otros idiomas (or otras lenguas), viceversa (or al contrario) por los otros pueblos es muy importante aprender el inglés.

Esto no expresa que el español es inútil, el territorio donde se habla español es más grande: un extranjero que va en a España o en a la America del Sur y habla solo(sólo/solamente) el inglés probablemente puede manejarse, (or defenderse) pero un extranjero que también habla español tiene la vida muy mucho más fácil.

1. The Spanish spellings "que" and "qui" sounds like the Italian spellings "che" and "chi".

2. Translating the English word "manager" to Spanish is challenging. Spanish has borrowed the word "mánager", but mostly to name the manager of a band or boxer. Other common translations include "gerente", "encargado/a", "jefe", "director/a", "administrador/a", "agente", "entrenador/a". These words are usually not interchangeable.

3. "Lenguaje" usually refers to usage or style. An individual language (English, Spanish, Italian) is "una lengua" or "un idioma".

4. "Muy" is a shortened form of "mucho". In certain contexts one must use the full form, and "mucho más" is one of those contexts.

5. As a noun "americano" more often means "a person from the continent(s) of America" rather than "a person from the USA". Some people object to using "americano" to mean "a person from the USA". Alternative neutral words include "norteamericano" and "estad(o)unidense".

6. As an intransitive verb, "Manejar" = "to drive (a car, bus, or other powered vehicle)". The pronominal verb "manejarse" is one of several possible ways to say "to manage/get by/cope". In this context "defenderse" might also work.

7. "Ir a [destination] en [vehicle or mount]". "Va en España" suggests traveling on a horse or ship named "España".

[wayfarer]

Thank you again wrholt for your very detailed corrections, you are helping me a lot. In Italy "americano" definitely means "from the USA", evidently when Spanish speaking people say "norteamericano" want to point out that Central and South America also exist!! In fact I was not sure about the word "manejar". OK, now I learned the difference between the expressions "andar a" and "andar en"