Order of adjectives

[brute]

In English there is a "rule" of syntax that few native English speakers have ever been taught. Foreign students, however, need to learn it.
This concerns the order of adjectives attached to a single noun in a sentence.
Native English speakers seem to follow the rule intuitively.
One can classify adjectives into a sequence of 7 types :
1 Personal opinion: beautiful, interesting
2 Size: big, small
3 Age: young, old
4 Shape: round, square
5 Colour: red, yellow
6 Nationality: Spanish, English
7 Material: plastic, glass
8 Purpose: hearing (aid)

So, one would say:
An interesting 1 little 2
old 3
black 5
American 6
woman.

Any other order sounds "un-English"
Do Spanish adjectives follow a similar sequence?

[irmamar]

In Spanish there isn't a rule to order the adjectives, just the use of comma and a conjunction (y, e, etc.). Usually, when you use several adjectives, one of them is in front of the name (usually to highlight something). Furthermore, in Spanish, two (or three) adjectives of your example become into a noun: old + woman = vieja (+ little = viejecita)

Una interesante viejecita, negra y americana.

Anyway, you must be careful of the adjective you put in front of the name. A different sentence would be:

Una vieja negra (or "una negra vieja"), pequeña y americana (here I've omitted "interesting")

Anyway, I'm grateful because of your list

[Tomisimo]

Originally Posted by brute

Do Spanish adjectives follow a similar sequence?

I'll let a native speaker answer that. But I just wanted to say great post and great information!

Here are some more examples:

little old rusty car
big red barn
hot running water
spicy colorful Mexican food
If you put the adjectives in any other order, it doesn't sound correct. (although there is some leeway with adjectives that fit into more than one category, such as "rusty" or "colorful" in the above examples)

[irmamar]

Originally Posted by Tomisimo

I'll let a native speaker answer that. But I just wanted to say great post and great information!

Here are some more examples:

little old rusty car
big red barn
hot running water
spicy colorful Mexican food
If you put the adjectives in any other order, it doesn't sound correct. (although there is some leeway with adjectives that fit into more than one category, such as "rusty" or "colorful" in the above examples)

Un viejo cochecito oxidado - un viejo y oxidado cochecito - un pequeño coche, viejo y oxidado, etc.
El gran establo rojo.
Agua corriente caliente (agua corriente siempre es en este orden)
Comida picante mexicana de colores vivos - Picante comida mexicana de vivos colores - Comida mexicana, picante y de vivos colores, etc.

[Tomisimo]

Originally Posted by irmamar

Un viejo cochecito oxidado - un viejo y oxidado cochecito - un pequeño coche, viejo y oxidado, etc.
El gran establo rojo.
Agua corriente caliente (agua corriente siempre es en este orden)
Comida picante mexicana de colores vivos - Picante comida mexicana de vivos colores - Comida mexicana, picante y de vivos colores, etc.

So I think there is more flexibility in this respect in Spanish. But in some of your examples, you used "viejo y oxidado" in that order. Would you ever say "oxidado y viejo"?

[Fazor]

Originally Posted by Tomisimo

(although there is some leeway with adjectives that fit into more than one category, such as "rusty" or "colorful" in the above examples)

I had started to type a response earlier, but didn't post it because I was lacking in some information.

But anyway, I agree. It seems that adjectives that describe similar features can be interchanged, but that there's still an underlying order to them. I never learned an order, so I don't know if it's a set grammatical rule, or just an artifact of how we're use to saying it. I do know an English grammar expert though, so I'll ask her.

It seems to me that the order is

[Opinion adjectives*] -> [Physical Features: Age, size, ect.] -> [Color] -> [Personal distinctions: Race, Nationality, religion, etc.].

But that leaves large gaps that maybe someone, or ourselves as a collective effort, can fill in.

Oh, and I astrix'ed the "opinion adjectives" because playing with them, you seem to be able to move them anywhere you want and it works, but some places sound better than others.

[Tomisimo]

I think what the innate grammatical rule boils down to is that the subjective, least defining adjectives are farthest away from the noun, while the most defining, most intrinsic, least subjective adjectives are closest to the noun.

So taking as an example, "the nice, smiling American lady", we can see that above all, the lady is an American lady-- being American is a more important piece of information than the fact that she is nice or smiling. Then we have "smiling", which is less important, it is something that can change easier, but it is less subjective than "nice".

[bobjenkins]

gracias, he esperado sobre,"cuáles orden del ajectivos es correcto, no reglas en este caso.

[Fazor]

Originally Posted by Tomisimo

I think what the innate grammatical rule boils down to is that the subjective, least defining adjectives are farthest away from the noun, while the most defining, most intrinsic, least subjective adjectives are closest to the noun.

That's pretty much what my "grammar expert" said. Most important (or personal) adjectives closest. Also, there's certain adjective pairings that always go in order together just because they're known. Best example is from above "Little old lady". "Little old" is just used so much, the pairing is pretty much automatic.

[brute]

Originally Posted by Fazor

I had started to type a response earlier, but didn't post it because I was lacking in some information.

But anyway, I agree. It seems that adjectives that describe similar features can be interchanged, but that there's still an underlying order to them. I never learned an order, so I don't know if it's a set grammatical rule, or just an artifact of how we're use to saying it. I do know an English grammar expert though, so I'll ask her.

It seems to me that the order is

[Opinion adjectives*] -> [Physical Features: Age, size, ect.] -> [Color] -> [Personal distinctions: Race, Nationality, religion, etc.].

But that leaves large gaps that maybe someone, or ourselves as a collective effort, can fill in.

Oh, and I astrix'ed the "opinion adjectives" because playing with them, you seem to be able to move them anywhere you want and it works, but some places sound better than others.

This raises another question: What is the purpose of "rules" of grammar.

Are they designed to fossilise the way a language is used?
Are they simply an attempt to classify the way a language is used?

The former inhibits the evolution of a language, the latter encourages it.

The Academie Française has always done its best to keep French as it was in the time of Molière. They now seem to be losing the battle to prevent the invasion of English.

However, the English and Spanish languages seem not to be "ruled" by their so called "rules" and have been allowed to diverge into many interesting varietions. The rules are used to describe the language and not to prescribe it.

Perhaps the francophones are scared that their language will be diluted out of existence by contamination with other more dominant languages.

[Fazor]

The "Rules", if *I* were forced to explain their existence, would be there to standardize the language, to facilitate the learning and understanding of it between different speakers.

Can you imagine how confusing a language would be if there weren't any rules?

But the unique thing about grammar is that those rules are fluid, and change with use over time. Thus, your second description (Way to classify language), in my opinion, is an apt description. The thing is, you cannot use the "language changes" as an excuse to ignore the rules.

[sosia]

Originally Posted by Tomisimo

So I think there is more flexibility in this respect in Spanish. But in some of your examples, you used "viejo y oxidado" in that order. Would you ever say "oxidado y viejo"?

it's a matter of use. The people say often "viejo y oxidado" as "oxidado y viejo", so at the end sounds more natural.
Other examples:
blanco y resplandeciente
valiente y fiero
noche de rayos y truenos (you can say "noche de truenos y rayos", but ...)


back to the topic
An interesting 1 little 2 old 3 black 5 American 6 woman
Una interesante viejecita americana.
good rule!
I suppose it's the most importatnt the closer. But as irmamar says, usually we chose other words/conjunctions in order to say too much adjectives.
I usually say colors/nacionalities later: un establo rojo, un vestido verde, un cielo azul. Un velero chino, una pirámide egipcia.
but it's the only one I can remember

saludos

[irmamar]

Originally Posted by sosia

it's a matter of use. The people say often "viejo y oxidado" as "oxidado y viejo", so at the end sounds more natural.
Other examples:
blanco y resplandeciente
valiente y fiero
noche de rayos y truenos (you can say "noche de truenos y rayos", but ...)


back to the topic
An interesting 1 little 2 old 3 black 5 American 6 woman
Una interesante viejecita americana.
good rule!
I suppose it's the most importatnt the closer. But as irmamar says, usually we chose other words/conjunctions in order to say too much adjectives.
I usually say colors/nacionalities later: un establo rojo, un vestido verde, un cielo azul. Un velero chino, una pirámide egipcia.
but it's the only one I can remember

saludos

I didn't notice I repeated "viejo y oxidado", I suppose it's because phonetically it sounds better. But as Sosia said, you can say "oxidado y viejo" as well.

By the other side, maybe we don't put together so much adjectives as in English, because we can make a noun with several adjectives, like in this case old + woman + little = viejecita.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by irmamar

By the other side, maybe we don't put together so much adjectives as in English, because we can make a noun with several adjectives ...

Unas correccioncitas:
On the other hand, maybe we don't put so many adjectives together because we can make a noun out of several adjectives.

[poli]

It should be noted that in Spanish the meaning of the adjective sometimes changes depending on where the adjective is placed.
Example: la dichosa canción= the stupid song
la canción dichosa=the joyful song.

For those of you who are beginners in Spanish studies, a good rule to know is that, unlike English, the adjective generally follows the noun.

You should also bear in mind, that this is not a solid rule. By this I mean
that as you become more familiar with speaking in your new language,
you can vary your speech and subtly change meanings by placing the
adjective prior to the noun.

[irmamar]

Originally Posted by Rusty

Unas correccioncitas:
On the other hand, maybe we don't put so many adjectives together because we can make a noun out of several adjectives.

Of course! Thanks

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

Originally Posted by brute

In English there is a "rule" of syntax that few native English speakers have ever been taught. Foreign students, however, need to learn it.
This concerns the order of adjectives attached to a single noun in a sentence. [...]
[...]
Do Spanish adjectives follow a similar sequence?

I'm late for replying to this topic, but I've been meditating on what determines the place of adjectives in Spanish. As it's been said, there is no rule; order and place of adjectives rather respond to euphonic and rhetorical criteria.

—> El perro hambriento, flaco y pulgoso
—> Un juego adictivo y peligroso
—> Un estado obeso, ineficiente y despilfarrador
—> Un gobierno depurado, eficaz y optimizador
—> El jardín enorme, soleado, colorido/El enorme jardín soleado y colorido/El colorido jardín, soleado, enorme
—> El soltero más guapo, rico y codiciado
—> Un amigo honesto, leal y generoso
—> Un feo departamento oscuro, húmedo y lúgubre/Un departamento feo, húmedo, oscuro y lúgubre/Un departamento lúgubre, oscuro, húmedo y feo
—> La mesa roja, grande pesada y apolillada/La gran mesa roja, pesada y apolillada/La mesa grande, roja, pesada y apolillada.
—> Un poderoso dictador sanguinario, arbitrario y corrupto

—> Un pájaro con un plumaje negro azulado tornasol brillante.
(No commas here, because "azulado", "tornasol" and "brillante" modify another adjective, so they work together like one.)


Just a couple of notes:

● Many times, a rhetoric progression or escalation determines the order of adjectives:

—> Una enfermedad incurable, progresiva y mortal (It wouldn't make much sense "progresiva" or "incurable" after "mortal")
—> Un anciano débil, enfermo, indefenso ("débil" and "enfermo" pave the way to "indefenso")


● There are some adjectives that usually sound better when placed right beside the noun, like those that express personal appreciation ("bonito", "feo", "nuevo", etc.), size ("grande", "chico", "enorme", etc.), colour ("rojo", "azul", "amarillo", etc.):

—> Un viejo baúl herrumbroso/Un baúl viejo y herrumbroso
—> Una gruesa carpeta roja/Una carpeta roja gruesa
(Btw, colours tend to be placed right beside the noun)


● Adjectives on which depends an essential characteristic of the noun aren't separated from it:

—> Un disco flexible azul
—> Las serpientes venenosas tropicales
—> Un cuadro renacentista restaurado
("Cuadro renacentista", "serpientes venenosas" and "disco flexible" should stay together, because both adjective and noun are like a noun only)


● When there are several adjectives in one sentence, we tend to place at least one of them before the noun, to avoid a long chain of adjectives afterwards.

—> "La célebre conferencista ciega" is preferred to "la conferencista ciega célebre"
—> "El talentoso actor venezolano" is preferred to "el actor venezolano talentoso"

(Also, the adjective placed before a noun emphasizes one quality over the others; in this case, "célebre" and "talentoso". If one says "la ciega conferencista célebre", one would be stressing that she's blind rather than her fame.)


● Sometimes, a substantive placed before an adjective charges the sentence with an ironic sense, but the context will provide the meaning:

—> "El famoso doctor no ha llegado" could either mean that a non-famous doctor has kept us waiting or that we're expecting a really famous one to arrive (to a conference, perhaps).


● Nationalities are always placed immediately after the noun:

—> El genial artista africano
—> Una nueva montaña rusa enorme
—> La implacable policía soviética/la policía soviética, implacable
—> El fino casimir inglés
—> El desorientado turista alemán/el turista alemán, desorientado

[brute]

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

I'm late for replying to this topic, but I've been meditating on what determines the place of adjectives in Spanish. As it's been said, there is no rule; order and place of adjectives rather respond to euphonic and rhetorical criteria.

—> El perro hambriento, flaco y pulgoso
—> Un juego adictivo y peligroso
—> Un estado obeso, ineficiente y despilfarrador
—> Un gobierno depurado, eficaz y optimizador
—> El jardín enorme, soleado, colorido/El enorme jardín soleado y colorido/El colorido jardín, soleado, enorme
—> El soltero más guapo, rico y codiciado
—> Un amigo honesto, leal y generoso
—> Un feo departamento oscuro, húmedo y lúgubre/Un departamento feo, húmedo, oscuro y lúgubre/Un departamento lúgubre, oscuro, húmedo y feo
—> La mesa roja, grande pesada y apolillada/La gran mesa roja, pesada y apolillada/La mesa grande, roja, pesada y apolillada.
—> Un poderoso dictador sanguinario, arbitrario y corrupto

—> Un pájaro con un plumaje negro azulado tornasol brillante.
(No commas here, because "azulado", "tornasol" and "brillante" modify another adjective, so they work together like one.)


Just a couple of notes:

● Many times, a rhetoric progression or escalation determines the order of adjectives:

—> Una enfermedad incurable, progresiva y mortal (It wouldn't make much sense "progresiva" or "incurable" after "mortal")
—> Un anciano débil, enfermo, indefenso ("débil" and "enfermo" pave the way to "indefenso")


● There are some adjectives that usually sound better when placed right beside the substantive, like those that express personal appreciation ("bonito", "feo", "nuevo", etc.), size ("grande", "chico", "enorme", etc.), colour ("rojo", "azul", "amarillo", etc.):

—> Un viejo baúl herrumbroso/Un baúl viejo y herrumbroso
—> Una gruesa carpeta roja/Una carpeta roja gruesa
(Btw, colours tend to be placed right beside the substantive)


● Adjectives of which depends an essential characteristic of the substantive aren't separated from it:

—> Un disco flexible azul
—> Las serpientes venenosas tropicales
—> Un cuadro renacentista restaurado
("Cuadro renacentista", "serpientes venenosas" and "disco flexible" should stay together, because both adjective and substantive are like a substantive only)


● When there are several adjectives in one sentence, we tend to place at least one of them before the substantive, to avoid a long chain of adjectives afterwards.

—> "La célebre conferencista ciega" is preferred to "la conferencista ciega célebre"
—> "El talentoso actor venezolano" is preferred to "el actor venezolano talentoso"

(Also, the adjective placed before a substantive emphasizes one quality over the others; in this case, "célebre" and "talentoso". If one says "la ciega conferencista célebre", one would be stressing that she's blind rather than her fame.)


● Sometimes, a substantive placed before an adjective charges the sentence with an ironic sense, but the context will provide the meaning:

—> "El famoso doctor no ha llegado" could either mean that a non-famous doctor has kept us waiting or that we're expecting a really famous one to arrive (to a conference, perhaps).


● Nationalities are always placed immediately after the substantive:

—> El genial artista africano
—> Una nueva montaña rusa enorme
—> La implacable policía soviética/la policía soviética, implacable
—> El fino casimir inglés
—> El desorientado turista alemán/el turista alemán, desorientado

Wow! You've put a lot of thought and effort into this wonderful, interesting and instructive response. I suspect that these three adjectives all have the same priority, but I would personally rank wonderful a little higher than the others. Thanks Angelica.

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

Thank you, Brute. That's what I'm here for... it's a real challenge to explain things that come just spontaneously to me.

[Arielle]

Wow! I second that, Brute. Thanks, AngelicaDeAlquezar!