Meaning Changes - Ser vs. Estar

[laepelba]

I wonder if it would be a good idea to make a new sticky thread (or a vocabulary by theme thread?) looking at the changes in meaning that can happen when exchanging ser vs. estar + an adjective or participle. Let me give a few of the examples that I have run across for a start:

aburrido
ser aburrido = to be boring
estar aburrido = to be bored

callado
ser callado = to be soft-spoken
estar callado = to be silent

nervioso
ser nervioso = to be neurotic
estar nervioso = to be jittery

listo
ser listo = to be clever
estar listo = to be ready

vivo
ser vivo = to be vivacious
estar vivo = to be alive

atento
ser atento = to be courteous
estar atento = to be attentive

consciente
ser consciente = to be aware
estar consciente = to be conscious (awake)

decidido
ser decidido = to be resolute
estar decidido = to be decided

despierto
ser despierto = to be alert; sharp
estar despierto = to be awake

enfermo
ser enfermo = to be an invalid, sickly
estar enfermo = to be sick

interesado
ser interesado = to be self-serving
estar interesado = to be interested

loco
ser loco = to be mad, upset
estar loco = to be scatterbrained

rico
ser rico = to be rich
estar rico = to be delicious

torpe
ser torpe = to be slow-witted
estar torpe = to be clumsy, awkward

verde
ser verde = to be green
estar verde = to be unripe

grave
ser grave = to be serious
estar grave = to be seriously ill

moreno
ser moreno = to be dark-skinned
estar moreno = to be tanned

pálido
ser pálido = to be pale-skinned
estar pálido = to be pale

pesado
ser pesado = to be heavy
estar pesado = to be tiresome

seguro
ser seguro = to be safe
estar seguro = to be certain

Are these correct? What notable others have I forgotten? Thoughts?

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by laepelba

Are these correct? What notable others have I forgotten? Thoughts?

They look good to me.

What about: agrio; blanco; bueno; ciego; decente; fuerte; guapo; joven; nuevo; oscuro; orgulloso; perezoso; rojo; soltero; viejo; cansado; considerado; despistado; divertido; parado ?

Some of these have the same meaning except that with ser it is permanent and with estar just temporary. Some have important differences for example guapo.

[laepelba]

Would you give the meanings of these with ser & estar.... I can't find all of them in my dictionaries.....

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by laepelba

Would you give the meanings of these with ser & estar.... I can't find all of them in my dictionaries.....

*sigh*

agrio
ser agrio: to be sauer (by nature)
estar agrio: to taste sauer

blanco
ser blanco: to be white
estar blanco: to be pale (from fear)

bueno
ser bueno: to be good
estar bueno: to be healthy

ciego
ser ciego: to be blind (from birth)
estar ciego: to be blinded (by the sun)

decente
ser decente: to be decent respectable
estar decente: to look decent

fuerte
ser fuerte: to be strong
estar fuerte: to be good at something

guapo/a
ser guapo/a: to be handsome, pretty
estar guapo/a: to look nice (even though normally ugly)

joven
ser joven: to be young
estar joven: to look young

nuevo
ser nuevo: to be new
estar nuevo: to look new

oscuro
ser oscuro: to be dark (in a room)
estar oscuro: to be dark (without sun)

orgulloso
ser orgulloso: to be a proud person
estar orgulloso: to be proud of something

perezoso
ser perezoso: to be lazy by nature
estar perezoso: to be lazy (in a particular case)

rojo
ser rojo: to be red
estar rojo: to blush (with embarrassment)

soltero
ser soltero: to be unmarried
estar soltero: to be still unmarried

viejo
ser viejo: to be old
estar viejo: to look old

cansado*
ser cansado: to be tiring
estar cansado: to be tired

considerado*
ser considerado: to be considerate
estar considerado: to be highly regarded

despistado*
ser despistado: to be absent-minded
estar despistado: to be daydreaming, miles away

divertido*
ser divertido: to be entertaining
estar divertido: to be in a good mood

parado*
ser parado: to be shy
estar parado: to be out of work

*=past participles

Please correct any mistakes, anyone

[aleCcowaN]

Originally Posted by laepelba

nervioso
ser nervioso = to be neurotic
estar nervioso = to be jittery

vivo
ser vivo = to be vivacious
estar vivo = to be alive

rico
ser rico = to be rich
estar rico = to be delicious

torpe
ser torpe = to be slow-witted
estar torpe = to be clumsy, awkward

pesado
ser pesado = to be heavy
estar pesado = to be tiresome

ser nervioso = to be highly strung

ser vivaz = to be vivacious
ser vivo = to be clever, sharp

ser rico = to be rich
ser rico = to be tasty, delicious as a general opinion or on a regular basis ("estar rico" is only for today's meal)

ser torpe = to be clumsy, awkward (on a regular basis)
estar torpe = ??? (temporarily; when you are sedated or under the effect of alcohol)

ser pesado/ estar pesado ---> it can perfectly be the other way round.

[poli]

Some of the terms have different meanings according to what I hear.

Ser vivo means to be a real sharp character, but not in a positive way--like an accomplished cheater.

... and if I'm not mistaking :Ser pesado means to be a real bore. or a real pain in the neck.



Words mean different things in different contexts though.

[aleCcowaN]

Originally Posted by poli

Some of the terms have different meanings according to what I hear.

Ser vivo means to be a real sharp character, but not in a positive way--like an accomplished cheater.

We say "no es inteligente, pero es vivo", that is, smart enough to make his/her intelligence to work for him/her, what may include some ability to take advantage of any circumstance. If intelligence is the ability to perform complex reasonings and manage a huge bunch of information, un vivo hasn't a great deal. But, if intelligence is the ability to quickly adapt to the environment -social, natural, technological- un vivo is very intelligent.

Originally Posted by poli

... and if I'm not mistaking :Ser pesado means to be a real bore. or a real pain in the neck.

I agree.

[laepelba]

Thanks, all - I love the discussion!! (And thanks, especially, Perikles, for running those definitions for me/us!)

[aleCcowaN]

Originally Posted by Perikles

*sigh*

agrio
ser agrio: to be sauer (by nature)
estar agrio: to taste sauer

bueno
ser bueno: to be good
estar bueno: to be healthy

fuerte
ser fuerte: to be strong
estar fuerte: to be good at something

joven
ser joven: to be young
estar joven: to look young

nuevo
ser nuevo: to be new
estar nuevo: to look new

oscuro
ser oscuro: to be dark (in a room)
estar oscuro: to be dark (without sun)

perezoso
ser perezoso: to be lazy by nature
estar perezoso: to be lazy (in a particular case)

rojo
ser rojo: to be red
estar rojo: to blush (with embarrassment)

soltero
ser soltero: to be unmarried
estar soltero: to be still unmarried

viejo
ser viejo: to be old
estar viejo: to look old

considerado
ser considerado: to be considerate
estar considerado: to be highly regarded

despistado
ser despistado: to be absent-minded
estar despistado: to be daydreaming, miles away

divertido
ser divertido: to be entertaining
estar divertido: to be in a good mood

Those in blue just show basic features of ser and estar and many adjectives and verboids could be used.

About the rest

estar bueno = healthy? it may be edible, sane, high quality, or it may be "well".

ser fuerte = estar fuerte = to be good at something + basic distinction between ser and estar.

estar joven = to look and act younger that his/er age

estar nuevo = being in mint condition or without signal of being worn or wasted by use or time

estar o(b)scuro = .... with insufficient light, in shadows

ponerse rojo = to blush (with embarrassment)
estar rojo = to show a reddish visage, like bloated / to be sunburnt

ser viejo = estar viejo = to be old
estar viejo = to be too old / to look and act older than his/er real age

estar considerado = to be regarded as (it's an incomplete phrase)
estar bien considerado = ser bien considerado = to be highly-regarded

estar despistado = to be muddled

estar divertido = to be having fun

[laepelba]

"sauer" - is that a BrE spelling? In the US, we spell it: "sour"....

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by laepelba

"sauer" - is that a BrE spelling? In the US, we spell it: "sour"....

We do too in BrE, what I wrote was German (as in Sauerkraut). I confess I was using a table of ser/estar differences from a Spanish grammar book written in German. (That is why one or two of the verbs don't really count, but they were in the list because it makes a difference when translated into German.)

There are some words in German and English which have almost identical pronunciation (like sour/sauer) and being a little dyslexic, I often confuse the two languages.

[conejodescarado]

No sé si éste sea útil o no, pero una chica mexicana con quien chateo en Skype acaba de poner este vídeo en línea:

[swr999]

Originally Posted by Perikles

...
guapo/a
ser guapo/a: to be handsome, pretty
estar guapo/a: to look nice (even though normally ugly)
...

I might change this usage a bit:

ser: Ella es una niña guapísima. (a statement of fact)
estar: "Niña, ¡qué guapa estás!" (looks especially beautiful tonight)

same 'niña', but special occasion.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by swr999

ser: Ella es una niña guapísima.
estar: "Niña, ¡qué guapa estás!" (looks especially beautiful tonight)

same 'niña', but special occasion.

Orthographic corrections, for those who might be learning.

[pacomartin123]

Originally Posted by Perikles

guapo/a
ser guapo/a: to be handsome, pretty
estar guapo/a: to look nice (even though normally ugly)

It reminds of an observation I have made. If a woman tells a man "You look handsome today" the man says "thank you". If a man tells a woman "You look beautiful today" the woman says "What do I normally look like?".

I've always taken it as the difference in the ways that the sexes hear a statement, not in any way a comment on the nature of the English phrase. Most men figure out to omit the word "today", as it can accidentally turn an intended compliment into an insult.

I would like to know from a native Spanish speaking woman how the phrase "estas guapa" would be interpreted. Would you take it as a backhanded insult, or as a compliment.

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by pacomartin123

I would like to know from a native Spanish speaking woman how the phrase "estas guapa" would be interpreted. Would you take it as a backhanded insult, or as a compliment.

Good question. My guess is that it would be a compliment, an observation of her taste in clothes, hairstyle, makeup, etc., irrespective of her underlying ugliness/beauty.

But I'm guessing how a woman would react to something, and I'm old enough to know better.....

[wrholt]

It seems to me that if one knows that a woman has intentionally dressed up for some reason, then "estás guapa" would suggest that one has noticed and appreciated her effort. Tone of voice and expression undoubtedly help, too.

[aleCcowaN]

Interspersing (is it that?) "...especialmente..." (or "...particularmente..." in Spanish) would do the trick, both languages

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

I agree with wrholt.

If you say "estás guapa", it means you're making a compliment on how the woman looks at a certain moment. Same for "te ves bien/guapa/bonita..."
All of these express a compliment for a moment in time.

If you say "eres guapa/bonita/linda...", you're making a compliment on the permanent features of the woman.

Most women I know, however, if you say "estás guapa", "qué bien te ves" or so, would take it as a compliment and be glad that something made them look better at that moment.

[pacomartin123]

It seems as if "estás guapa" would be the correct compliment for a coworker. An added especialmente wouldn't hurt if it is your wife or girlfriend.

There is a decent Wikipedia article that states:
The Spanish verb "ser" is etymologically related to the English words "essence" and "is", and estar with "state", "status", "standing", "stance" and "stay".