The use of the article

[poli]

Do you find that Latinamericans use the article (el, la, los, las, un, una ) less than people from Spain? I am almost certain that this is true, but I would like to hear if others agree with me.

Also, I have a question for the people from Spain in these forums. Do you find that the article is often left out in everyday speech, or does the leaving out of the article sound foreign?

[sosia]

I think the article is never left. We skip names, and so on, but not articles.
original "Mi tia se fue de excursión a la playa con los amigos de la escuela"
left "Mi tia se fue de excursión a playa con amigos de escuela"
sounds veeery bad.

[Alfonso]

I agree with Sosia. You can never leave the article out, unless it's required by the sentence...

¿Quieres agua?

[Jane]

Originally Posted by sosia

I think the article is never left. We skip names, and so on, but not articles.
original "Mi tia se fue de excursión a la playa con los amigos de la escuela"
left "Mi tia se fue de excursión a playa con amigos de escuela"
sounds veeery bad.

The sentences sure not only sound bad without the articles, they´re also not correct, unless you want to communicate another thing, but sometimes when spanish speakers talk really fast, it sounds like they´re leaving out the articles(though they´re not).

[poli]

This is really interesting. Sosia's example "son amgos de escuela" is something I believe I hear among Latin Americans or maybe it's the way I (as an English speaker) hear it. School friends and friends from the school have different meanings to me.

Do you find that English speakers leave out the article a lot?
Do you find that Latin Americans leave out the article sometimes too?

[Tomisimo]

One thing to consider is that I think Mexican Spanish has been influenced a lot more by English than Iberian Spanish.

For example, you hear a lot of things like: Me duele mi pie, whereas in Spain I don't think they would ever say that- It would be Me duele el pie.

[Rusty]

Yes, amigos de escuela is certainly used (you'll find evidence of that fact on the Internet). I know this is substandard usage, but it exists still the same.

I believe it is good to know and use correct grammar. The way I see it, you've two options when you are conversing with someone that uses substandard English. If you believe you'll offend or sound snobbish, and you're comfortable with using substandard speech, you may choose to speak the same way. Or, you can speak correctly. Some may take offense, some may learn something new, and some people just don't care.

I usually try to use grammatically correct English, but there are some grammar rules that are falling out of favor and I'm forced to realign my views.
For example, it is grammatically correct to say 'It is I,' but most people prefer 'It's me.'
Another example that is quite common nowadays is, 'Eat healthy vegetables.' Food can't be healthy. It can promote health, so it is healthful. I haven't seen any carrots pumping iron at the gym or parsnips doing pilates, but, try as I might, I just sound odd to everyone else if I use the correct word.

[Tomisimo]

Languages change over time. What we call correct grammar today certainly wasn't for Shakespeare, and most likely won't be in one hundred years. That's why I prefer grammar that describes how speakers use the language instead of prescribing how people should use language.

[Elaina]

How refreshing!

I totally agree with you David.

As an interpreter I have found that if I use medically correct terms, many people will not understand what I am saying so what I do is that I bring it down a notch and then "educate" them in the proper way of calling the test, procedure, condition, etc.

I think it makes (helps) them feel more at ease and know that I am not snobbish and in fact am here to help them.

Elaina

[Alfonso]

Originally Posted by Rusty

... you've two options when you are conversing with someone that uses substandard English. If you believe you'll offend or sound snobbish, and you're comfortable with using substandard speech, you may choose to fit in. Or, you can speak correctly.

Rusty, I don't think this is common nor even possible in Spanish for a Spanish speaker. It works other way than English. First of all, you will never offend other people just by talking correctly. Most of Spanish speakers speak correctly (more or less). Register doesn't have anything to do with correction. A low register can be correct, and a high register can also be incorrect, although it's more uncommon. Even you can go to little villages inhabited by non scholarized people who speak a perfect Spanish with some idioms, sounds, vocabulary and good habits that have been lost in high educated enviroments. Nevertheless, when you speak Spanish, you've got two or more options, but nobody will speak incorrect Spanish as an option.

I think substandarized English (you use this term, and it sounds efficient to me) is actually really standarized. This doesn't happen with Spanish. So, you don't have that choice. What's the other choice but to speak your own idiolect? Not to say technical words? To say swering words? Of course, you are not talking a substandarized Spanish.

[poli]

Originally Posted by Alfonso

Rusty, I don't think this is common nor even possible in Spanish for a Spanish speaker. It works differently from English. First of all, you will never offend other people just by speaking correctly. Most of Spanish speakers speak correctly (more or less). Register doesn't have anything to do with correction. A low register can be correct, and a high register can be incorrect, although it's more uncommon(use less common it sounds more natural in English) . Even if you go to little villages you will find unscholarly people who speak a perfect Spanish with some idioms, sounds, vocabulary and good habits that have been lost in very educated environments.(Alfonso, I changed the previous sentence because it was a run-on. I added the verb will find.) Nevertheless, when you speak Spanish, you've got two or more options, but nobody will speak incorrect Spanish as an option.

I think substandarized English (you use this term, and it sounds efficient to me) is actually really standarized. This doesn't happen with Spanish. So, you don't have that choice. What the other choice do you have but to speak your own idiolect? Not to say technical words? To say sware words? Of course,(you are speaking standardized Spanish) this sounds better in English than: you are not talking a substandarized Spanish.

Entonces, si entiendo lo que dices: No hay una gran diferencia entre
se habla español en todo España menos unos modismos regionales.
Pero si oye Crotalito que dice que atras(menos el acento) de, y yo
que observo que muchos latinoamericanos que suenan educados usan menos el articulo(si les oigo correctamente), tiene que notar que hay varios estándardes en que se habla español en otras partes del mundo.

[Rusty]

Thanks, Alfonso, for your comments. I'm not entirely sure that we're talking about the same thing, though.

Substandard speech is language that isn't acceptable by grammarian edict. David touched on descriptive grammar versus prescriptive grammar above. It seems that prescriptive grammar defines how we should say things, while descriptive grammar is how we actually say them. I think the grammarians invented the idea of substandard language to describe speech that doesn't fit their prescribed rules, even if its usage is widespread.

I would guess that most Americans write and speak a substandard form of American English, but most of us don't worry too much about it. We would all agree that our usage could be worse.

I don't mean to offend anyone, but this is a possible sentence in some parts:
We was goin' down th' road apiece and seen a possum all squished flat, prob'ly by one of 'em thar cars driven by city folk. I ain't never seen 'em so flat.

Even though this sentence is replete with grammatical errors and region-specific vocabulary, most people in the United States understand its every nuance. This isn't even close to the language I hear on a daily basis, but I suppose it would be if I were born and bread elsewhere.

I think our attitudes toward proper language usage greatly depend on what we've learned (our education levels) and what rules we've decided to adopt.

[CrOtALiTo]

I think, what the Mexican, we've adapted a language very distintic to the people from spain, the people Spain native use words more accentuatesed, in their native idiom, the Spanish Mexican, it's more colloquial and ordinary, but a form more exact, look it's the case, all we as native spain, and native Mexican doesn't speak same.

[Tomisimo]

Originally Posted by Alfonso

Register doesn't have anything to do with correction correctness.

I think the point is how do you define correct? For example, if 100 million native Spanish speakers in Mexico think it's ok to say atrás de los arbustos instead of detrás, how can say it's not correct? My point is that as a grammarians, linguists or language teachers, we should describe how language is used, and not try to prescribe how some people think or wish it was used. That's just my opinion, and I completely respect your opinion as well.

[Tomisimo]

I wanted to add another comment. I think it's useful to make a distinction between standard, non-standard, and incorrect. For example:

Standard English: I don't have any.
Non-standard English: I ain't got any.
Incorrect English: *I has not have any.

There are a lot of people who think non-standard language is incorrect when there are millions of native speakers who use it. In my opinion, we cannot call it incorrect.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by Tomisimo

I wanted to add another comment. I think it's useful to make a distinction between standard, non-standard, and incorrect. For example:

Standard English: I don't have any.
Non-standard English: I ain't got any.
More non-standard English: I don't got any.
More non-standard English: I ain't got none.
Incorrect English: *I has not have any.

There are a lot of people who think non-standard language is incorrect when there are millions of native speakers who use it. In my opinion, we cannot call it incorrect.

I threw in a couple more examples of non-standard English that I hear all the time.

[Jane]

For me, it´s always very educating to hear intelligent dialogue or discussion about any topic... and, if we don´t get to a compromise concerning the issue, we would have learnt a couple of new things from it all.
To some people, it´s either black or white, correct or not correct, there are no grey areas, no in betweens. Then, there are people who are betwixt and between.

I´d like to know which of the two we should heed; prescriptive grammar which defines how we should say things, or descriptive grammar which is how we(and the people around us) actually say them.
Do we pay attention to grammarians inventions or to substandard language, especially if its usage is widespread.

[Elaina]

I think some people would have problems with Ebonics. Not a very "correct" way of speaking English!

But as I've always said....language is alive (any language) and it keeps changing, we need to keep an open mind and accept the changes.

Elaina

[CrOtALiTo]

Yeah, I'm agreed with you, Elaina.

[poli]

Originally Posted by Elaina

I think some people would have problems with Ebonics. Not a very "correct" way of speaking English!

But as I've always said....language is alive (any language) and it keeps changing, we need to keep an open mind and accept the changes.

Elaina

A lot of African Americans were upset when some school programs proposed teaching Ebonics. I understood the anger. There is certainly nothing wrong with dialect or non-standard language, but the standard language is the common language understood by all speakers of the given language. It is the inclusive language, not just the language of a specific ethnic group or social class. Standard language is the equalizer. Mr. Obama would not have gotten where he is today if he were taught to speak good standard Ebonics and ignored or laughed at standard English. Standard English/Spanish may not be the way we all speak, but I think that it is the responsibility of good basic education to focus on it.