Me pidió tomar su clase

[tacuba]

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

@Tacuba:
Still, although the subjunctive with the same subject sounds rather clumsy, I hear the infinitive with a different subject used more often, and it doesn't feel that awkward to me.

Thanks Malila:

I'm sorry if I'm being a little "menso" here, but could you explain what you mean in the above? When you say "I hear the infinitive with a different subject used more often...." what exactly are you referring to? Could you give some examples?

Thanks ahead of time

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

Oh no, please don't say that. You're not "menso" at all. It's rather that I was "torpe" for explaining.

I just meant that people use this infinitive instead of subjunctive quite often.



But some notes:

Sentences that use subjunctive with the same subject sound clumsy and should be expressed with an infinitive:
- (Yo) No quiero que me vaya tarde. -> No quiero irme tarde.
I don't want to leave late.
- ¿(Tú)Quieres que (tú) veas la tele? -> ¿Quieres ver la tele?
Do you want to watch TV?


The sentences with different subjects are expressed with a subjunctive:
- (Yo) Quiero que (él/ella) vaya a la fiesta.
I want him/her to go to the party.
- Juan espera que (nosotros) estemos juntos cuando (él) llegue.
Juan expects us to be together when he arrives.


However, there are cases where there are different subjects, but the subjunctive can be changed by an infinitive, and speakers aren't specially bothered:
- Es necesario que (tú) hables con su familia. ≈ Es necesario hablar con su familia.
It's necessary that you talk to his/her family.
- (Él) Ordenó que (ellos) se callaran. ≈ Ordenó callarse.
He ordered that they shut up.
- (Ella) Insiste en que (nosotros) vayamos todos. ≈ Insiste en ir todos.
She insists that we all go.
- La recomendación fue que (ella/él) se tomara la medicina. ≈ La recomendación fue tomarse la medicina.
The recommendation was that he/she should take the medicine.
- (Ellos) Me sugirieron (a mí) que no lo comprara. ≈ Me sugirieron no comprarlo.
They suggested me not to buy it.

[chileno]

Ok, here is why I say that transcribing a novel is beneficial/of benefit

I am going to use Angélicas's examples: Of the following examples, I do not know if the ones I marked with the are "gramatically" correct. I also marked with a the ones that are correct according to me, and you wouldn't catch me not even dead using the other way.

Sentences that use subjunctive with the same subject sound clumsy and should be expressed with an infinitive:
- (Yo) No quiero que me vaya tarde. -> No quiero irme tarde.
I don't want to leave late.
- ¿(Tú)Quieres que (tú) veas la tele? -> ¿Quieres ver la tele?
Do you want to watch TV?



The sentences with different subjects are expressed with a subjunctive:
- (Yo) Quiero que (él/ella) vaya a la fiesta.
I want him/her to go to the party.
- Juan espera que (nosotros) estemos juntos cuando (él) llegue.
Juan expects us to be together when he arrives.


On the following examples I am making marks, marks and corrections, again according to me:

However, there are cases where there are different subjects, but the subjunctive can be changed by an infinitive, and speakers aren't specially bothered:
- Es necesario que (tú) hables con su familia. ≈ It's necessary that you talk to his/her family.
-Es necesario hablar con su familia. = It's necessary to talk to his/her family. (anyone)
- (Él) Ordenó que (ellos) se callaran. ≈ He ordered that they shut up.
-Ordenó callarse. = She/he ordered to shut up.

- (Ella) Insiste en que (nosotros) vayamos todos. ≈ She insists that we all go.
-Insiste en ir todos.
-Insiste en ir. = She/he insists in going

- La recomendación fue que (ella/él) se tomara la medicina. ≈ The recommendation was that he/she should take the medicine.
-La recomendación fue tomarse la medicina. = The recommendation was to take the medicine.

- (Ellos) Me sugirieron (a mí) que no lo comprara. ≈ -They suggested that I did not buy it.
- Me sugirieron no comprarlo. - They suggested me not to buy it.

Way off?

[laepelba]

WOW - I just stumbled on this. Quite fascinating conversation. The context was this: my colleague called me one morning to ask me to sit in her classroom during the first period because she would be a few minutes late. She asked ME to cover her class for her. Does that help the context?

[chileno]

Originally Posted by laepelba

WOW - I just stumbled on this. Quite fascinating conversation. The context was this: my colleague called me one morning to ask me to sit in her classroom during the first period because she would be a few minutes late. She asked ME to cover her class for her. Does that help the context?

She asked ME to cover her class for her. = Ella me pidió cubrir su clase por ella/Ella me pidió que hiciera la/su clase por ella.

Might help the context of what was being covered in the other topic. I am not sure if it will help tacuba.

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

@Perikles: Amphibology is a bit forced here. One would assume that the subject is the same in "me pidió tomar su clase" only if there were a clear context where something impedes the teacher from taking her own class. But in most cases, "me pidió tomar su clase" would be understood as her asking me to do the work.

Many thanks for that .

Off-topic, but amphibology (of Greek root) is one of those correct English words which is never used. In fact the BNC has zero hits, whereas the synonym (from a Latin root) ambiguity has 847 hits. I had never heard the word until you used it some months ago.

[chileno]

Originally Posted by Perikles

Many thanks for that .

Off-topic, but amphibology (of Greek root) is one of those correct English words which is never used. In fact the BNC has zero hits, whereas the synonym (from a Latin root) ambiguity has 847 hits. I had never heard the word until you used it some months ago.

I guess ambiguous is used instead.

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

@Perikles: thank you.
Oh well. I think, just like "to elide", "amphibology" is rather jargon for linguistic-related studies. I learnt some of those words a long time ago in Spanish and I think I tend to overuse them in other languages. I'll put them away in some drawer.

[Vikingo]

Hi tacuba,

you need to distinguish between two types of verbs of influence in this case: one in which there often can be the same subject in both parts of the phrase, for example "querer", "desear", "necesitar", etc.

The other one, which Borrego & Co calls "verbos de mando", the subjects almost never coincide, since people don't normally order themselves around or give themselves permission etc. (unless, of course, we're talking to ourselves, but let's ignore that for now). These are verbs like "mandar", "permitir", "prohibir", etc.

In the latter case, verbos de mando, you can quite often choose between using the subjunctive and using the infinitive. The subjunctive is almost always fine, but not absolutely all verbs can go with the infinitive. Which ones are up for debate, and depends on the use and regional differences etc. Borrego et al give a few examples of verbs where they prefer the subjunctive:

Le suplicó perdonarlo (?)
Le aconsejó perdonarlo (?)
Le pidió perdonarlo (??)
Le rogó perdonarlo (??)

Where (?) is "Secuencia poco recomendable, de aceptabilidad discutible", and (??) is "Secuencia de muy dudosa aceptabilidad".

With "decir", however, you can't use the infinitive in these cases. That's because it's a verb of communication, although it role may be one of "verbo de mando": * Me dijo ir al cine.

Bouzet (Grammaire espagnole) cites the verbs "encargar, aconsejar, rogar, suplicar, persuadir, recomendar, encomendar" as being unable to use infinitive.

Saludos

[hermit]

Having learned Spanish primarily from Latin Americans, it doesn't sound strange to me at all...