The position of adjectives with nouns connected by "de"

[gramatica]

Hola a todos:

¿Me podrían decir si están bien estas dos frases? Puse el adjetivo después del primer sustantivo porque no tiene que ser un manual de escritura pero no se puede separar "máquina de escribir" ¿es así? Does anyone know of a list of these kinds of nouns where you can't split them up or a good website that talks about this?

El manual detallado de escritura

La máquina de escribir bonita

Muchas gracias

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

On principle, both of your sentences are correct, although maybe, for reasons of emphasis I'd prefer "el detallado manual de escritura".

I don't think it's a matter of lists. I'd advise that you rather thought about making sentences with an unambiguous meaning.

Sombreros para niños de paja. -> Hats for straw children or straw hats for children?
Sombreros de paja para niños. -> Specific hats for specific sizes.

Leche de vaca en polvo. -> Powder cows?
Leche en polvo de vaca. -> Sentence would be ambiguous (dust of a cow?) but "leche en polvo" is a specific product.

Ropa para dama de lana. -> Wonder what a wool lady would look like?
Ropa tejida para dama. -> Right quality for the right object.

[gramatica]

Thank you very much

Do you know what the term is called for a Spanish noun with "de." For example, "la máquina de escribir".

When the noun is like "la máquina de escribir" and it goes together the adjective has to go after the entire phrase, right? Pero cuando el sustantivo no tiene que ir junto al otro sustantivo puede ir o antes del primer sustantivo o despues dependiendo de la emfasis, ¿no?

Can you think of any other nouns that have to go together besides "la maquina de escribir" or do you know of a good website that talks about this?

Una pequeña correción:

In principle

Thank you

[irmamar]

That is called "sinapsia" and it consists of noun + de/a + adjective. Look here, there are a few.

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by irmamar

That is called "sinapsia" and it consists of noun + de/a + adjective. Look here, there are a few.

And also noun + de/a + verb

[irmamar]

Originally Posted by Perikles

And also noun + de/a + verb

You're right; also a noun (pan de ángel)

[gramatica]

Thank you very much

El sitio fue muy útil

¿También se llama una frase nominal/una sintagma o son cosas distintas? If it is a "sinapsia" does the adjective always go after the entire "sinapsia" and if it isn't can it go either before or after the first noun?

Thank you

[irmamar]

Originally Posted by gramatica

Thank you very much

El sitio fue muy útil

¿También se llama una frase nominal/una sintagma o son cosas distintas? If it is a "sinapsia" does the adjective always go after the entire "sinapsia" and if it isn't can it go either before or after the first noun?

Thank you

"Frase nominal" is not a commonly used term, but "sintagma" (nominal or verbal, it all depends if the nucleus is a noun or a verb).

I think in sinapsia the adjective always go after the noun, never before (above all if both terms are joined with a preposition). I think that it's called "lexía" when they're not joined with a preposition (tinta china, coche cama, etc.).

[gramatica]

Thank you very much

If it is not a "sintapsia" and the nouns are joined by "de" can the adjective go either after the first noun or before both of them?

For example,

libro de escritura-->buen libro de escritura/libro bueno de escritura

Is "libro de escritura" also called a "lexía" because they don't have to go together?

Thank you very much

[irmamar]

"Libro de escritura" is not either a lexía or a sinapsia. I could say "libro de física/matemáticas/...". A lexía is a compound noun (written together or not) with a full meaning (you have also compound nouns, written together or not, even with a hyphen ). I'd say that a "sinapsia" is a "lexía" with a preposition (though some authors call it "lexía compleja").

"Libro de escritura" would be what is called "sintagma preposicional", that is with a preposition (de), and it's called "complemento del nombre" because it modifies a noun.

And, of course, you can say "buen libro de escritura".

This page explains the order of adjectives in Spanish. And this one is about compound nouns. I've seen that there is the possibility to write the adjective before the noun in some cases (which I had never thought about before ).

I hope it helps.

[gramatica]

Thank you very much. Just to make sure I understand this, could you please tell me if my explination is correct?

Sustantivo + preposición + sustantivo: derecho de veto, puntos de venta, punto de encuentro, punto de vista, fondos de inversión, tipos de interés, plan de pensiones, plan de choque, estado de opinión, creación de empleo.

These are called "sinapsia" and the adjective goes after the entire "sinapsia". In English is it called a "sinapsia" also?

On the other hand, "libro de escritura" is a sintagma because there are many different kinds of books. The adjective can either go before or after "libro," right? el buen libro de escritura/el libro bueno de escritura

Pero no entiendo la diferencia entre una sintagma y un sinapsia. Porque se dice "punto de encuentro, punto de vista..." ¿No es lo mismo que decir "libro de escritura, libro de matemáticas..."?

Thank you very much

[irmamar]

Originally Posted by gramatica

Thank you very much. Just to make sure I understand this, could you please tell me if my explination is correct?



These are called "sinapsia" and the adjective goes after the entire "sinapsia". In English is it called a "sinapsia" also?

I'm sorry, I don't know the word "sinapsia" or "lexía" in English , though I think they are called compound nouns. An example would be "brother-in-law", where you have a preposition between two nouns.

In Spanish, the position of adjectives are more free than in English. Sometimes you can put the adjective before (es una buena base de datos); other times, you can place the adjective following a noun or a sinapsia (es una base de datos muy buena).

On the other hand, "libro de escritura" is a sintagma because there are many different kinds of books. The adjective can either go before or after "libro," right? el buen libro de escritura/el libro bueno de escritura

Pero no entiendo la diferencia entre una sintagma y un sinapsia. Porque se dice "punto de encuentro, punto de vista..." ¿No es lo mismo que decir "libro de escritura, libro de matemáticas..."?

Thank you very much

A sinapsia is a compound noun with a preposition and everybody understands this as a whole. For example, "estrella de mar" is a sinapsia because "estrella" means star, and "mar" means sea, but "estrella de mar" means starfish. "Estrella de mar" is a sinapsia because it is been used so often that it has become into a compound noun (even when their constituents are divided/joined by a preposition.

"Libro de escritura" is not a sinapsia (a compound noun) because it is not considered as a whole, since, as you said, there are many kind of books (de lectura, de física, de gramática,...): the subject of the book would change, but it would be "a book". "Punto de vista" means viewpoint, I can't change neither "punto" nor "vista" without changing the complete meaning. If I replaced "vista" with "encuentro", that would be another word, another compound noun with a completely different meaning, a whole meaning, I mean. I don't know if I'm able to explain clearly.
Anyway, sintactically, a sinapsia is also a sintagma preposicional, though considered as a whole, as a compound noun.

The adjective can go either before or after the noun: un buen libro de escritura / un libro bueno de escritura / un libro de escritura bueno.

I hope you're not confused now

Edit: Now I realise that you can't break a sinapsia with an adjective: una base buena de datos , una estrella preciosa de mar . Of course: this is a compound noun, you can't break it . You can do it with a "sintagma preposicional": una mesa horrible de madera.

[gramatica]

Thank you very much

In short, one can say "una estrella de mar bonita" or "una bonita estrella de mar", but one cannot say "una estrella bonita de mar", right?

One can say "un libro de escritura bueno," un buen libro de escritura" or "un libro bueno de escritura"? Does this first one and last one mean the same thing?

Thank you

[irmamar]

Originally Posted by gramatica

Thank you very much

In short, one can say "una estrella de mar bonita" or "una bonita estrella de mar", but one cannot say "una estrella bonita de mar", right?

One can say "un libro de escritura bueno," un buen libro de escritura" or "un libro bueno de escritura"? Does this first one and last one mean the same thing?

Thank you

1. Right
2. Yes, they do. It depends on the context. If I went to a bookshop, I'd say:

Deme un buen libro de escritura

As I'm saying first the adjective, the emphasis is in "buen", I want a very good book (surely, I want the best).

If I were speaking to a friend, I'd say:

Es un libro (de escritura) bueno

This book is enough good to learn.

Some adjectives change the meaning of a sentence if they go before or after the noun (un viejo amigo/un amigo viejo).

3. You're welcome.

[bobjenkins]

Así vamos a ver si lo entiendo...

"Nombre" - "Adjetivo" - "de" - "xxx"
"Adjetivo" - "Nombre" - "de" - "xxx"
"Nombre" - "de" - "xxx" - "Adjetivo"

[irmamar]

Originally Posted by bobjenkins

Así vamos a ver si lo entiendo...

"Nombre" - "Adjetivo" - "de" - "xxx" Sometimes it's possible, when it's not a compound noun.
"Adjetivo" - "Nombre" - "de" - "xxx"
"Nombre" - "de" - "xxx" - "Adjetivo"

If you are not sure, place the adjective after the noun (the compound noun). That will be correct

Un libro de física bueno.
Una estrella de mar bonita.
Una olla a presión de buena calidad.
Unos zapatos de piel sucios.

[gramatica]

Mil gracias

I understand it now

Regards

[irmamar]

You're welcome.

[bobjenkins]

Encontré que me ayuda pensar en eso así.....

El entero verbo es

(Estrella de mar)

Y el adjetivo puede estar puesto después o antes

aquí (Estrella de mar) o ahí

[irmamar]

Originally Posted by bobjenkins

Encontré que me ayuda pensar en eso así.....

El entero verbo es

(Estrella de mar)

Y el adjetivo puede estar puesto después o antes

aquí (Estrella de mar) o ahí

Está muy bien, pero resulta que no es un verbo, sino dos sustantivos

We say "antepuesto" (before) or "pospuesto" (after)