Una Pregunta

[seosamh]

Originally Posted by CrOtALiTo

Yes I understand you, as you know, my situation is similar to your case. I have around three years of learning and studying English, and well, I have only achieved the level that you see in my posts or the last post I made during all that time.

Now someone told me one day, that if you want to learn a language, you should try to read books and magazines every day . Also, if you can chat with someone everyday it's better than only writing in English.

Perhaps you should give more attention to movies, you need to improve your vocabulary more, sometimes Spanish is a little hard to understand many of the different words that exist in speech. I have the same trouble, sometimes I forget the words and I don't really know if I have made alot of mistakes in this post, but it is the case that we need to practice a lot.

I recommend to you that if you practice speaking with someone it's better, so I believe that in one year, at the most, you will be able to speak with someone in Spanish.

sí, a aprender una lengua es algo muy difícil, necesitamos practicar mucho y un día sabemos suficiente!

he hecho unos cambios a tu parrafo como si lo escribo. quizas no ingles perfecto pero espero que te ayudo.

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by chileno

That doesn't mean anything really... You see, I "self-selected" to smoke for a lot of years and now I do not feel too good.

I am talking about something that is natural, instinctive. We might think whatever, and that doesn't make it natural or instinctive, even if you think it is.

When I say self selected learning styles, I don't mean chosen activities. I mean some people learn better by writing, some by listening. Some people learn better with a room full of bright light, some learn better in a dim room with a single lamp immediately over their work. Some people work best with music in the background. Some people need absolute silence.

Personally, I learn best by listening to lectures and taking lots of notes and re-reading my notes. That does NOT work best for most people.

The thing that is my biggest pet peeve as an educator is that the education system in the United States is designed to create success for caucasian males from the middle- to upper-class. There are an awful lot of extremely intelligent students, full of great potential, who simply can NOT learn the way "school" is presented to them.

The GOAL for learning is SUCCESS. You and I might take two different paths to success, but if we both get there (ethically), then what does it matter if I over-analyze, read sub-titles, and try to learn without translating? I am not telling you that you are learning the "wrong" way..... For me, success will be when I can read and write and converse in a generally fluent and intelligent Spanish - at a level somewhere between "comfortable" informal Spanish and the very-correct educated Spanish used at a formal level.

When I ask questions in a certain direction, it's because those are the answers that will most help me achieve my successes. I GREATLY APPRECIATE when you make suggestions that I might be chasing down a wrong path. But, at some point, I need to be able to find a balance between what Hernan thinks is going to help me and what I know to be my best approach to learning something.

What I did instinctively as a child (with a child's brain, emotions, social skills, goals, ambitions) is different than what I do instinctively as an adult. And I'm GLAD about that!

One of the things that I have always taken issue with is when adults are told that learning a language the way a child does is the best way. That might work for some adults, but it doesn't make sense. The developmental part of a child's brain is poised for language-learning. Developmentally, an adult's brain is not at all poised for language-learning, and is thus a rather artificial process. This is why I am always looking for the method that will work best for ME, seeing as I am forcing my brain to do something that it's not natural for it to do at my (advanced) age.....

I didn't mean for this to become a novel............. Sorry!!

[chileno]

Originally Posted by laepelba

When I say self selected learning styles, I don't mean chosen activities. I mean some people learn better by writing, some by listening. Some people learn better with a room full of bright light, some learn better in a dim room with a single lamp immediately over their work. Some people work best with music in the background. Some people need absolute silence.

Personally, I learn best by listening to lectures and taking lots of notes and re-reading my notes. That does NOT work best for most people.

The thing that is my biggest pet peeve as an educator is that the education system in the United States is designed to create success for caucasian males from the middle- to upper-class. There are an awful lot of extremely intelligent students, full of great potential, who simply can NOT learn the way "school" is presented to them.

The GOAL for learning is SUCCESS. You and I might take two different paths to success, but if we both get there (ethically), then what does it matter if I over-analyze, read sub-titles, and try to learn without translating? I am not telling you that you are learning the "wrong" way..... For me, success will be when I can read and write and converse in a generally fluent and intelligent Spanish - at a level somewhere between "comfortable" informal Spanish and the very-correct educated Spanish used at a formal level.

When I ask questions in a certain direction, it's because those are the answers that will most help me achieve my successes. I GREATLY APPRECIATE when you make suggestions that I might be chasing down a wrong path. But, at some point, I need to be able to find a balance between what Hernan thinks is going to help me and what I know to be my best approach to learning something.

What I did instinctively as a child (with a child's brain, emotions, social skills, goals, ambitions) is different than what I do instinctively as an adult. And I'm GLAD about that!

One of the things that I have always taken issue with is when adults are told that learning a language the way a child does is the best way. That might work for some adults, but it doesn't make sense. The developmental part of a child's brain is poised for language-learning. Developmentally, an adult's brain is not at all poised for language-learning, and is thus a rather artificial process. This is why I am always looking for the method that will work best for ME, seeing as I am forcing my brain to do something that it's not natural for it to do at my (advanced) age.....

I didn't mean for this to become a novel............. Sorry!!

Jeopardy time!

What's the meaning of subjectivity...

Just a point of view....

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by chileno

Jeopardy time!

What's the meaning of subjectivity...

Just a point of view....

¡Tocado!

[CrOtALiTo]

Originally Posted by seosamh

sí, a aprender una lengua es algo muy difícil, necesitamos practicar mucho y un día sabemos suficiente!

he hecho unos cambios a tu parrafo como si lo escribo. quizas no ingles perfecto pero espero que te ayudo.

Thank you for the support.

I inviting you that we continue themselves improving the language.

I believe that we're able to learn more the language.

[chileno]

Originally Posted by laepelba

¡Tocado!

En español también se dice en francés.

[CarmenCarmona]

Originally Posted by chileno

But what's more important, is the fact that our minds connect sounds with actions. At first is just a sound, but as the action repeats through the same or different scenes, repeatedly, the sound starts to make sense and you start to recognize it. It is simple, that's how babies start to acquire their native language instead of studying grammar first.

It doesn't have anything to do with being too analytical or anything of that sort. It's just the way everyone functions.


(Lou Ann?)

Originally Posted by Perikles

Yes, but it does not follow that this is how adults learn a second language. In fact the process is entirely different.

According to research in the field of Applied Linguistics, early views on First Language Acquisition (FLA) had a behaviourist perspective (focus on input) in the sense that they claimed that (i) Language is a habit structure where the child associates particular responses to certain stimuli; and that (ii) the child has a passive role when acquiring his native language because he just limit himself to imitation whereas environment has an active contribution.

However, that perspective was disregarded by mentalist theories (focus on processing of data, more specifically those of Chomsky) where it was argued that (i) Human beings have an inborn language acquisition device which they use for making hypotheses; and that (ii) the child has an active role given that he goes through the processes of hypothesis formulation and hypothesis testing in order to construct his own language from the linguistic data offered by the environment, where exposure is paramount. Hence we find children’s errors such as ‘sheeps’ or ‘goed’, where no imitation is involved.

As a consequence, mentalist theories were applied to the field of Second Language Acquisition (SLA) where people’s idiosyncratic linguistic system at a particular stage in his language development is called ‘Interlanguage’.

As a result, two main theories rose: the ‘Interlanguage Hypothesis’ and the ‘Creative Construction Hypothesis’, both claiming that FLA and SLA are similar or identical processes.

Nevertheless, they didn’t take into account other important variables, such as cross-linguistic transfer, individual factors (age, motivation, aptitude, gender…) and external factors (acquisitional context, etc), for the variation observed either among L2 learners or between L1 and L2 acquirers.

My conclusion is: FLA and SLA are very similar processes in terms that learners follow more or less the same route of development (different transitional stages) but the rate of development (the speed at which learners go through the different transitional stages) is influenced by internal as well as external factors, so in this case Chileno is closer to the actual explanation, although not totally right!

[Perikles]

That is all very well, but surely the environment for SLA is usually totally different. If you immersed an adult into a culture where the second language was all he/she heard, I could believe it. But in practice, the second language is learned in a totally artificial manner with no immersion and only a superficial encounter with the spoken language.

[CarmenCarmona]

Originally Posted by CarmenCarmona

My conclusion is: FLA and SLA are very similar processes in terms that learners follow more or less the same route of development (different transitional stages) but the rate of development (the speed at which learners go through the different transitional stages) is influenced by internal as well as external factors, so in this case Chileno is closer to the actual explanation, although not totally right!

Originally Posted by Perikles

That is all very well, but surely the environment for SLA is usually totally different. If you immersed an adult into a culture where the second language was all he/she heard, I could believe it. But in practice, the second language is learned in a totally artificial manner with no immersion and only a superficial encounter with the spoken language.

There are two types of acquisitional contexts: naturalistic settings and educational settings, according to type of language internalization, external help and input available.

Naturalistic settings are:
1. Second language learning in majority language contexts. i.e: L2
learners of Spanish in Spain.
2. L2 learning in official language contexts. i.e: L2 learners of English in
Nigeria.
3. L2 learning in international contexts. i.e: Use of L2 English for
business communication in Japan.

Educational settings are:
1. Submersion. i.e: Immigrant children of African origin living in Spain and
being educated in Spanish schools.
2. Segregation. i.e: Immigrant children of African origin living in Spain and
being educated through the medium of Spanish in separate groups from
Spanish-speaking children.
3. Immersion in a) bilingual societies. i.e: Immersion programmes in
English-speaking areas of Canada in which children are educated in French
(the minority language); and in b) monolingual societies. i.e: Spanish
children being educated through the medium of French in Spain (e.g:
Lycée Français).
4. The language classroom: a) Second language classroom. i.e: Spanish
classes for international students at a Spanish university; and b) Foreign
language classroom. i.e: The teaching of English in Spanish secondary
schools.

As I mentioned before, mentalist views on SLA did not take into consideration this variable as well as many others.

However, it has been proved that there exists a natural sequence of development in L2 acquisition (very similar to FLA) regardless of the native and target language.

Researchers have conducted many studies on this issue, such as 'morpheme order studies' or 'developmental sequences studies'. In the latter, for example, it has been proved that in FLA there are 3 stages in the acquisition of negation:

Stage 1 --> 'No' and 'any' are tagged on to a word or phrase, either at the beginning or at the end. i.e: No go; No wipe finger; Any bath!...

Stage 2 --> The negative element is inserted into a more complex sentence. 'No, not & don't' are used although these forms do not vary for persons or tenses. i.e: He don't want it; He not bite you...

Stage 3 --> Production of correct forms of different verbs to suit person, number and tense.

L2 acquirers undergo practically the same stages, also in the formation of interrogatives and so on, so forth.

So...which practice are you talking about?!

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by CarmenCarmona

4. The language classroom: a) Second language classroom. i.e: Spanish
classes for international students at a Spanish university; and b) Foreign
language classroom. i.e: The teaching of English in Spanish secondary
schools.

So...which practice are you talking about?!

If you are asking me, that one above.

[CarmenCarmona]

Originally Posted by Perikles

If you are asking me, that one above.

But anyway, the route of development is quite the same as in FLA! I believe we all go through the same stages when learning ANY language, in ANY setting.

[chileno]

Originally Posted by Perikles

That is all very well, but surely the environment for SLA is usually totally different. If you immersed an adult into a culture where the second language was all he/she heard, I could believe it. But in practice, the second language is learned in a totally artificial manner with no immersion and only a superficial encounter with the spoken language.

Hmmm...

The day I arrived to Los Angeles, as I was getting out of the airplane that broght me, I thought to myself, very insecure by the way "¿Y ahora, cómo voy a hacer, si aquí no hablan español?"

Little did I know.

I did it in a year. I mean, to feel comfortable and know that I am on my way. Later I lost my interest, for a couple of reasons.


I would say it took me two years to equate more or less my Spanish vocabulary. Even though I still learn new words as they appear. For example, about two years ago I heard for the first time the word "inebriated". I think it had to do with court proceedings.

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by CarmenCarmona

But anyway, the route of development is quite the same as in FLA! I believe we all go through the same stages when learning ANY language, in ANY setting.

I hear what you say, but it does not follow that an adult in a classroom situation can learn a second language by trying to simulate the process of a child learning a first language. I've been there, done that, and the result is always an abject failure (in my experience, and I've seen it in three different languages).

I'm no longer sure if this is what we are discussing.

[chileno]

Originally Posted by Perikles

I hear what you say, but it does not follow that an adult in a classroom situation can learn a second language by trying to simulate the process of a child learning a first language. I've been there, done that, and the result is always an abject failure (in my experience, and I've seen it in three different languages).

I'm no longer sure if this is what we are discussing.

I am not sure of where you got the idea that you have to simulate a child process, and much less in a classroom setting.

My proposal is that you read, write and express yourself in your language, hence you should be able to do the same in the other language. For that I have my own method.

It is so easy to say I don't speak "whatever" hence you cannot read it nor write it, specially if it is any kind of recognizable lettering system?

Now that you mentioned "child process", I remember several girls at work liking the way I talked, because it resembled the way children spoke.

[CarmenCarmona]

Originally Posted by Perikles

I hear what you say, but it does not follow that an adult in a classroom situation can learn a second language by trying to simulate the process of a child learning a first language. I've been there, done that, and the result is always an abject failure (in my experience, and I've seen it in three different languages).

I'm no longer sure if this is what we are discussing.

In an educational setting... don't learners start being educated from the simplest to the most complex aspects of a foreign language? Well, that's the way children acquire their native language as well!

The foreign language classroom does help learners in several different ways, it has many deficiencies though, but I don't think you should disregard it like that, especially because I went to Ireland on that basis and, if I believed in god, I would thank him for having been able to appeal to everything I learnt at school cos things turned out to be easier for me, you know...

do you agree?

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by CarmenCarmona

In an educational setting... don't learners start being educated from the simplest to the most complex aspects of a foreign language? Well, that's the way children acquire their native language as well! ...

do you agree?

I'm not sure what I should agree with or not, but the above statement is clearly true. It is also very superficial. I thought the whole area of dispute here was the introduction of formal grammar. In the schoolroom situation for adults, I was commenting purely on the effectiveness of formal grammar to explain the language being learned. I myself place a very high value on it, others, like @Chileno don't. My own experience in language classes for adults (I have attended 8 different ones in 8 different languages) is that those with no idea of grammar make no progress at all, while those with an interest in it do actually learn something. In this environment, an adult learns in an entirely different manner to a child learning a first language.

I was commenting only on this particular set of circumstances. Obviously, a younger adult in a genuine immersion environment would learn in a different (and better) manner.

(I have to leave now - I'm not hiding )

[irmamar]

I agree with Perikles. I would add that learning my own language grammar has helped me to speak it much better.

When I was a child I had many words pronounced in an Andalusian way. I remember that I liked reading a lot and there were some words which I pronounced in a way and I thought they were another ones when I read them in a book. One of them was "salsillo", I had always said "salsillo", but one day when I was reading the word "zarcillo" (which was not unknown for me), I realised that it was the same word (though I pronounced it in a different way). Another word was... (well, I don't know if I should say, but I will....), another word was Shakespeare.

[CrOtALiTo]

Originally Posted by irmamar

I agree with Perikles. I would add that learning my own language grammar has helped me to speak it much better.

When I was a child I had many words pronounced in an Andalusian way. I remember that I liked reading a lot and there were some words which I pronounced in a way and I thought they were another ones when I read them in a book. One of them was "salsillo", I had always said "salsillo", but one day when I was reading the word "zarcillo" (which was not unknown for me), I realised that it was the same word (though I pronounced it in a different way). Another word was... (well, I don't know if I should say, but I will....), another word was Shakespeare.

My soon said time before pecillo instead pecesillo.

Really the language is learnt with the time, it's most intelligent a kid that a adult in a half age, furthermore there are words that sometimes inclusive in own language are hard to pronoun them.

You know anybody knows the himself language in a 100 per cent.

[CarmenCarmona]

Originally Posted by Perikles

In the schoolroom situation for adults, I was commenting purely on the effectiveness of formal grammar to explain the language being learned. I myself place a very high value on it, others, like @Chileno don't.

Originally Posted by irmamar

I agree with Perikles. I would add that learning my own language grammar has helped me to speak it much better.

Originally Posted by CrOtALiTo

Really the language is learnt with the time, it's most intelligent a kid that a adult in a half age, furthermore there are words that sometimes inclusive in own language are hard to pronoun them.

You know anybody knows the himself language in a 100 per cent.

In my view, having the opportunity to learn the system of a language that one speaks is a very illuminating way of avoiding this type of ignorance.

In my native language I adore knowing things, such as, for example, the fact that 'por qué' is used in interrogatives, 'porque' for statements in a subordinate clause and 'porqué' is a noun.

These are basic notions which not everyone masters or is capable of explaining the reasons why, and those who are unable to do so are also those who have no idea of grammar, thus they are not making mistakes (which stem from a failure in performance and can be self-corrected) they are actually making errors (which are caused by a faulty or incomplete learning of the language system).

This seems quite decadent, doesn't it? (I am talking about adults performing their native language, not about children because for them, errors are actually necessary and unavoidable).

Of course, if one lacks this competence in his own language...what will be his fateful destiny in a second language?

In my second language, taking into account the random use of word order in my native language, I believe it's paramount, for instance, to know that the equation Subject + verb + object is invariable, and thus you cannot say: 'I am taking with me tonight my CD's'.

However, in practice, it seems that this lack of knowledge only influence the speed at which you eventually acquire correct forms through the processes of 'hypothesis formation and testing', so you may never acquire certain things!!

@Chileno, excuse me if I may offend you but it's hard for me to believe that you were as much proficient in English (with no basis) as in Spanish in only two years' exposure to your second language, unless you were a child.

It's been 30 years since you started learning English, ain't it? Well, it has rained too many cats and dogs since then, if you let me use an euphemism! (I mean you don't probably remember the extent to which you learnt or not!).

Let me ask you something, how old were you when you went abroad and what previous contact had you had with English?

[CrOtALiTo]

Well just I have three years learning the language and even I can't speak it well.