Una Pregunta

[CarmenCarmona]

Originally Posted by Perikles

If you are asking me, that one above.

But anyway, the route of development is quite the same as in FLA! I believe we all go through the same stages when learning ANY language, in ANY setting.

[chileno]

Originally Posted by Perikles

That is all very well, but surely the environment for SLA is usually totally different. If you immersed an adult into a culture where the second language was all he/she heard, I could believe it. But in practice, the second language is learned in a totally artificial manner with no immersion and only a superficial encounter with the spoken language.

Hmmm...

The day I arrived to Los Angeles, as I was getting out of the airplane that broght me, I thought to myself, very insecure by the way "¿Y ahora, cómo voy a hacer, si aquí no hablan español?"

Little did I know.

I did it in a year. I mean, to feel comfortable and know that I am on my way. Later I lost my interest, for a couple of reasons.


I would say it took me two years to equate more or less my Spanish vocabulary. Even though I still learn new words as they appear. For example, about two years ago I heard for the first time the word "inebriated". I think it had to do with court proceedings.

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by CarmenCarmona

But anyway, the route of development is quite the same as in FLA! I believe we all go through the same stages when learning ANY language, in ANY setting.

I hear what you say, but it does not follow that an adult in a classroom situation can learn a second language by trying to simulate the process of a child learning a first language. I've been there, done that, and the result is always an abject failure (in my experience, and I've seen it in three different languages).

I'm no longer sure if this is what we are discussing.

[chileno]

Originally Posted by Perikles

I hear what you say, but it does not follow that an adult in a classroom situation can learn a second language by trying to simulate the process of a child learning a first language. I've been there, done that, and the result is always an abject failure (in my experience, and I've seen it in three different languages).

I'm no longer sure if this is what we are discussing.

I am not sure of where you got the idea that you have to simulate a child process, and much less in a classroom setting.

My proposal is that you read, write and express yourself in your language, hence you should be able to do the same in the other language. For that I have my own method.

It is so easy to say I don't speak "whatever" hence you cannot read it nor write it, specially if it is any kind of recognizable lettering system?

Now that you mentioned "child process", I remember several girls at work liking the way I talked, because it resembled the way children spoke.

[CarmenCarmona]

Originally Posted by Perikles

I hear what you say, but it does not follow that an adult in a classroom situation can learn a second language by trying to simulate the process of a child learning a first language. I've been there, done that, and the result is always an abject failure (in my experience, and I've seen it in three different languages).

I'm no longer sure if this is what we are discussing.

In an educational setting... don't learners start being educated from the simplest to the most complex aspects of a foreign language? Well, that's the way children acquire their native language as well!

The foreign language classroom does help learners in several different ways, it has many deficiencies though, but I don't think you should disregard it like that, especially because I went to Ireland on that basis and, if I believed in god, I would thank him for having been able to appeal to everything I learnt at school cos things turned out to be easier for me, you know...

do you agree?

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by CarmenCarmona

In an educational setting... don't learners start being educated from the simplest to the most complex aspects of a foreign language? Well, that's the way children acquire their native language as well! ...

do you agree?

I'm not sure what I should agree with or not, but the above statement is clearly true. It is also very superficial. I thought the whole area of dispute here was the introduction of formal grammar. In the schoolroom situation for adults, I was commenting purely on the effectiveness of formal grammar to explain the language being learned. I myself place a very high value on it, others, like @Chileno don't. My own experience in language classes for adults (I have attended 8 different ones in 8 different languages) is that those with no idea of grammar make no progress at all, while those with an interest in it do actually learn something. In this environment, an adult learns in an entirely different manner to a child learning a first language.

I was commenting only on this particular set of circumstances. Obviously, a younger adult in a genuine immersion environment would learn in a different (and better) manner.

(I have to leave now - I'm not hiding )

[irmamar]

I agree with Perikles. I would add that learning my own language grammar has helped me to speak it much better.

When I was a child I had many words pronounced in an Andalusian way. I remember that I liked reading a lot and there were some words which I pronounced in a way and I thought they were another ones when I read them in a book. One of them was "salsillo", I had always said "salsillo", but one day when I was reading the word "zarcillo" (which was not unknown for me), I realised that it was the same word (though I pronounced it in a different way). Another word was... (well, I don't know if I should say, but I will....), another word was Shakespeare.

[CrOtALiTo]

Originally Posted by irmamar

I agree with Perikles. I would add that learning my own language grammar has helped me to speak it much better.

When I was a child I had many words pronounced in an Andalusian way. I remember that I liked reading a lot and there were some words which I pronounced in a way and I thought they were another ones when I read them in a book. One of them was "salsillo", I had always said "salsillo", but one day when I was reading the word "zarcillo" (which was not unknown for me), I realised that it was the same word (though I pronounced it in a different way). Another word was... (well, I don't know if I should say, but I will....), another word was Shakespeare.

My soon said time before pecillo instead pecesillo.

Really the language is learnt with the time, it's most intelligent a kid that a adult in a half age, furthermore there are words that sometimes inclusive in own language are hard to pronoun them.

You know anybody knows the himself language in a 100 per cent.

[CarmenCarmona]

Originally Posted by Perikles

In the schoolroom situation for adults, I was commenting purely on the effectiveness of formal grammar to explain the language being learned. I myself place a very high value on it, others, like @Chileno don't.

Originally Posted by irmamar

I agree with Perikles. I would add that learning my own language grammar has helped me to speak it much better.

Originally Posted by CrOtALiTo

Really the language is learnt with the time, it's most intelligent a kid that a adult in a half age, furthermore there are words that sometimes inclusive in own language are hard to pronoun them.

You know anybody knows the himself language in a 100 per cent.

In my view, having the opportunity to learn the system of a language that one speaks is a very illuminating way of avoiding this type of ignorance.

In my native language I adore knowing things, such as, for example, the fact that 'por qué' is used in interrogatives, 'porque' for statements in a subordinate clause and 'porqué' is a noun.

These are basic notions which not everyone masters or is capable of explaining the reasons why, and those who are unable to do so are also those who have no idea of grammar, thus they are not making mistakes (which stem from a failure in performance and can be self-corrected) they are actually making errors (which are caused by a faulty or incomplete learning of the language system).

This seems quite decadent, doesn't it? (I am talking about adults performing their native language, not about children because for them, errors are actually necessary and unavoidable).

Of course, if one lacks this competence in his own language...what will be his fateful destiny in a second language?

In my second language, taking into account the random use of word order in my native language, I believe it's paramount, for instance, to know that the equation Subject + verb + object is invariable, and thus you cannot say: 'I am taking with me tonight my CD's'.

However, in practice, it seems that this lack of knowledge only influence the speed at which you eventually acquire correct forms through the processes of 'hypothesis formation and testing', so you may never acquire certain things!!

@Chileno, excuse me if I may offend you but it's hard for me to believe that you were as much proficient in English (with no basis) as in Spanish in only two years' exposure to your second language, unless you were a child.

It's been 30 years since you started learning English, ain't it? Well, it has rained too many cats and dogs since then, if you let me use an euphemism! (I mean you don't probably remember the extent to which you learnt or not!).

Let me ask you something, how old were you when you went abroad and what previous contact had you had with English?

[CrOtALiTo]

Well just I have three years learning the language and even I can't speak it well.