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Argentina is the country most like Italy outside of Italy

 

Questions about culture and cultural differences between countries and languages.


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Old September 12, 2009, 09:13 PM
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Argentina is the country most like Italy outside of Italy

Argentina is the country most like Italy outside of Italy

3/4 of the 13,356,715 people of Buenos Aires, Argentina are of Italian origin. The over all population of Argentina has a higher percentage of Italians than anyother country outside of Italy. Argentina has more than 3,500,000 Italian speakers; this tongue is the second most spoken language in the nation. Italian immigration from the beginning of the 20th century made a lasting and significant impact on the pronunciation and vernacular of the nation's spoken Spanish, giving it an Italian flair. In fact, Italian has contributed so much to Rioplatense that many foreigners mistake it for Italian.
   
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Old September 12, 2009, 10:23 PM
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Sobre la influencia no estoy capacitado para decir mucho, porque ya ha pasado casi un siglo y no es algo en lo que he profundizado. Pero se discute si hoy en día queda tanta. Antes sin duda, pero ahora yo por lo menos no lo creo.

No tengo ganas de dormir así que trataré de sintetizar un poco como llego toda esa gente aquí:
Cuando Argentina se empezo a formar "enserio" como un proyecto de nación, se vieron tres problemas: inversión (terminó viniendo el 90% de Inglaterra), tierras (se llevó a cabo la 'Campaña del Desierto', dejando a la Argentina conformada casi como la conocemos hoy; y mano de obra.
La inmigración deseada era principalmente de los países del norte, como Alemanía, Noruega, Inglaterra, Francia, ..., es decir: con un alto indice de profesionalismo. Al final terminaron primando los del sur y sobre todos, los campesinos con esperanza de progresar para luego retornar a su país, eran de: Italia y España. Los motivos de su migración son muy variados, pero vale decir que en ese momento se estaba viviendo una situación muy dificil en Europa en general y Argentina prometía mucho: tierras recién conquistadas y que aparentemente se podían repartir aún, alojamiento preparado apenas arribas al puerto, posibilidad de ser ciudadano sin mayores restricciones, etc, etc. "Argentina país para todos", incluso quedan rastros de la abertura al mundo de Argentina hasta hoy en día, en toda la consitutución.
Obviamente la realidad fue distinta, pero no creo que valga la pena aunar en esto.

Por lo que recuerdo, de los más 5.000.000 inmigrantes que entraron, se quedaron en el país unos 3.000.000 (sobre 4 millones que había de Argentinos...). De esa gente el 70% era de Italia, el 20% de España y el 10% restante de otros países, de los que destacan con varias colonías: Alemania, Polonia, Suecia, etc.
Solo 800.000 pudieron asentarse en el campo y con contratos pesimos de arrendamiento. El resto a las ciudades, como obreros.

Una gran influencia se dió en la política. El partido anarquista fue formado e ideado completamente por los inmigrantes europeos, que ya contaban con varias décadas de lucha política que en Argentina aún no se habían dado. También destacan los partidos socialistas y sindicalistas.

Por otro lado, se formaron varios barrios que parecían ser una parte de Europa extraviada en América, como 'La Boca'. En general toda la arquitectura de la ciudad se pareció y sigue pareciendo mucho a la europea. Durante los buenos tiempos económicos la elite argentina se jactaba de ser "La Europa de América", y realmente vivían como la elite de allá.

En el lenguaje había mucha influencia, pero la mayor parte murió hace tiempo y lo que queda viene de la mano del lunfardo, una jerga utilizada principalmente en el Rio de la Plata y que la propulso el Tango. A pesar que ya no se lo suele usar, quedarón muchas palabras que se dicen continuamente, aunque la minoría tienen origen italiano y no sabría distinguirlas y, si son italianas, seguramente sean de algún dialecto:
bondi , gamba , mango , laburo, bacán , boludo , capo , linyera , groso etc.

Quedó algo de gramática italiana escondida sobre todo en la forma de hablar de gente que no se educó mucho, pero es dificil detectarla. En fin, es discutible. Yo visité hace unos meses a TODA mi familía italiana (que vive en otra ciudad de Argentina) y la verdad, casi no hay rastro más que en lo físico. Por ahí se llegaba 10, 20, 30 años antes podría encontrar parientes con mucho acento y que dominen el italiano y apenas sepan español, pero ya no.
Las costumbres fueron mueriendo. ¿Qué quedó? Muchisimas ciudadanias y pasaportes italianos seguro que si, es más, tengo el mio aquí al lado
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Last edited by ookami; September 12, 2009 at 10:25 PM.
  #3  
Old September 14, 2009, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Villa View Post
Argentina is the country most like Italy outside of Italy

3/4 of the 13,356,715 people of Buenos Aires, Argentina are of Italian origin. The over all population of Argentina has a higher percentage of Italians than anyother country outside of Italy. Argentina has more than 3,500,000 Italian speakers; this tongue is the second most spoken language in the nation. Italian immigration from the beginning of the 20th century made a lasting and significant impact on the pronunciation and vernacular of the nation's spoken Spanish, giving it an Italian flair. In fact, Italian has contributed so much to Rioplatense that many foreigners mistake it for Italian.
There are also areas in Argentina where Welsh or German are the dominant languages.
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Old September 14, 2009, 02:59 PM
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Where? (I really don't know) maybe in the German colonies, but I think they speak Spanish as the first language now and German as the second. It's like the fourth generation. My father was at a German colony like 30 years ago (and a German girl fall in love with him ) And they all spoke Spanish.

Between "Italy" isn't thaaaat common as a language, I don't know anyone that studies it. I'm sure a lot of people make courses but obviously, the second language is English, by far. The third place will for... Portuguese, French or Italian. I found some stadistics that says the third is Portuguese and for me is like that.

In the past for sure it was the second tongue, but the mayority of that people is already dead and the familys are less traditional.
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'Time is a sort of river of passing events, and strong is its current; no sooner is a thing brought to sight than it is swept by and another takes its place, and this too will be swept away.' M.A.
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Old September 21, 2009, 09:53 AM
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Ask any native speaker of Spanish and they will tell you that people from Argentina speak Spanish with an Italian accent.
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Old September 21, 2009, 11:55 AM
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But to have an alike accent (that I don't know if we have it) it has not a lot to do with been "alike" Italy or speak Italian. I'm sure we don't have 3.500.000 persons that speak more than just a few words of Italian... I'm almost sure we don't have even more than one million; and .. half million...
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Please, don't hesitate to correct my English.
'Time is a sort of river of passing events, and strong is its current; no sooner is a thing brought to sight than it is swept by and another takes its place, and this too will be swept away.' M.A.
  #7  
Old September 21, 2009, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ookami View Post
But to have an similar accent (that I didn't even know we had) doesn't mean we speak Italian. I'm sure we don't have 3.500.000 persons that speak more than just a few words of Italian... I'm almost sure we don't even have more than one million and a half..
Cualquiera persona que habla español habla y entiende algo de italiano.
Es verdad que los argentinos, por lo menos los bonaeroences, hablan
con un accento y ritmo distintamente italiano. Se lo nota en seguida cuando vds. hablan. No me suena mál.
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Old September 21, 2009, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poli View Post
Cualquiera persona que habla español habla y entiende algo de italiano.
Es verdad que los argentinos, por lo menos los bonaerences, hablan
con un acento y ritmo distintamente(indistintamente?) italiano. Se lo nota en seguida cuando vds. hablan. No me suena mál.
Thanks poli. I think I wrote in a little confusing way:
with: (that I don't know if we have it) I didn't want to say (that I didn't even know we had) I wanted to say I don't know if we actually have it (and that that don't mind to the conversation, implicity)
with: and .. half million... is just that, I wanted to show as if I could continuing saying: and I almost sure we don't have even a hald million...

Look at this, that's italian accent? (I really don't know)
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'Time is a sort of river of passing events, and strong is its current; no sooner is a thing brought to sight than it is swept by and another takes its place, and this too will be swept away.' M.A.
  #9  
Old September 21, 2009, 12:35 PM
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Argentinian reminds me the Italian accent, but just a bit. I could distinguish perfectly an Argentinian from an Italian (speaking Spanish, of course)
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Old September 21, 2009, 01:05 PM
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really? That's cool
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