Tapar

[CrOtALiTo]

Originally Posted by laepelba

No problem, Crotalito. Don't forget the "of" after "a lot" (see above).



Thanks, Malila. So is it the sense of the passive voice vs. the active voice? Así:

"Las mujeres en Medio Oriente se tapan el rostro" is roughly like saying "The faces of [...] are covered." (More passive...)

"Las mujeres en Medio Oriente tapan su rostro. = Las mujeres en Medio Oriente tapan sus rostros" is roughly like saying "[...] cover their faces."

??

Thank you for your support.

And well also thank you for the endurance.

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

@Lou Ann: No, both sentences are active voice.

Passive voice: Los rostros de las mujeres en Medio Oriente son tapados. (Which sounds horrible and not clear btw.)

The difference is the pronominal form of the verb: taparse vs. tapar.
(Not all the verbs can be like this though.)

Ellas se tapan el rostro = ellas tapan su rostro.

[chileno]

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

@Lou Ann: No, both sentences are active voice.

Passive voice: Los rostros de las mujeres en Medio Oriente son tapados. (Which sounds horrible and not clear btw.)

The difference is the pronominal form of the verb: taparse vs. tapar.
(Not all the verbs can be like this though.)

Ellas se tapan el rostro = ellas tapan su rostro.

Los rostros de las mujeres en Medio Oriente están siempre tapados.

Es eso también Passive voice?

de ser así, está más claro?

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

Irma sabrá mejor, pero según yo, la voz pasiva se forma sólo con el verbo "ser", no "estar", pero hay otra forma de voz pasiva, que es la forma impersonal y que en este caso, suena mucho mejor:

En Medio Oriente se tapa el rostro de las mujeres.

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

@Lou Ann: No, both sentences are active voice.

Passive voice: Los rostros de las mujeres en Medio Oriente son tapados. (Which sounds horrible and not clear btw.)

The difference is the pronominal form of the verb: taparse vs. tapar.
(Not all the verbs can be like this though.)

Ellas se tapan el rostro = ellas tapan su rostro.

Okay, so if it's not a verb that can be used in a "-se" form, how would I know when to use "el/la" or "mi/ti/su", etc.?

[laepelba]

Okay, so there was that previous question that I asked. (I really do wonder about that....)

Secondly, I already asked about "tapar" vs. "ocultar". Now I wonder how "cubrir" fits into the mix? Are all three somewhat synonymous?

[chileno]

Originally Posted by laepelba

Okay, so if it's not a verb that can be used in a "-se" form, how would I know when to use "el/la" or "mi/ti/su", etc.?

Los rostros de las mujeres en Medio Oriente son tapados.

[/QUOTE]

Because the subject is los rostros and not las mujeres.

Does that answer your question?

Originally Posted by laepelba

Secondly, I already asked about "tapar" vs. "ocultar". Now I wonder how "cubrir" fits into the mix? Are all three somewhat synonymous?

I guess it's the same difference as in conceal, hide and cover. No?

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

@Lou Ann: No, both sentences are active voice.

Passive voice: Los rostros de las mujeres en Medio Oriente son tapados. (Which sounds horrible and not clear btw.)

The difference is the pronominal form of the verb: taparse vs. tapar.
(Not all the verbs can be like this though.)

Ellas se tapan el rostro = ellas tapan su rostro.

Originally Posted by laepelba

Okay, so if it's not a verb that can be used in a "-se" form, how would I know when to use "el/la" or "mi/ti/su", etc.?

Originally Posted by chileno

Because the subject is los rostros and not las mujeres.

Does that answer your question?

Not really. Look at Malila's two examples, "ellas se tapan el rostro" and "ellas tapan su rostro". The subject of both is "ellas", right?

Originally Posted by chileno

I guess it's the same difference as in conceal, hide and cover. No?

So, "tapar" means to cover something up physically ... "ocultar" means to conceal ... "cubrir" means to ... ??? Is "cubrir" exactly the same as "tapar"?

[chileno]

Originally Posted by laepelba

Not really. Look at Malila's two examples, "ellas se tapan el rostro" and "ellas tapan su rostro". The subject of both is "ellas", right?

Right. however your question was about "mi, tu, su" right? and not "se"

ellas = them = their = su Correcto?

Originally Posted by laepelba

So, "tapar" means to cover something up physically ... "ocultar" means to conceal ... "cubrir" means to ... ??? Is "cubrir" exactly the same as "tapar"?

Tapar means to cover something physically or not

and it can mean or these are all related to

Cover - conceal - hide

I cover my face

I conceal my face

I hide my face

Yes, they are all different but somewhat synonyms, right?

I think you are stuck somewhere and cannot get ouuuut!

One more, tapar = to put a lid.

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by chileno

Right. however your question was about "mi, tu, su" right? and not "se"

ellas = them = their = su Correcto?

Nope ... I still don't get it. If I want to say "raise your hand" to a student, I say "levanta la mano", right? There's no "se" in it, yet I'm still using "la" and not "tu". I still don't know when to use the possessive and when to use the definite article.............

Originally Posted by chileno

Tapar means to cover something physically or not

and it can mean or these are all related to

Cover - conceal - hide

I cover my face

I conceal my face

I hide my face

Yes, they are all different but somewhat synonyms, right?

I think you are stuck somewhere and cannot get ouuuut!

One more, tapar = to put a lid.

You're right - I'm still stuck on this and can't get out...... Again:

[Perikles]

On the same subject, of which I too despair, can anyone explain why my dictionary gives these two different examples of lack of possessive adjective?

Levantó los ojos del libro he raised his eyes from his book.
Se levantó el sombrero he raised his hat.

[irmamar]

Originally Posted by Perikles

On the same subject, of which I too despair, can anyone explain why my dictionary gives these two different examples of lack of possessive adjective?

Levantó los ojos del libro he raised his eyes from his book.
Se levantó el sombrero he raised his hat.

Difficult question , since you could say:

Levanta el sombrero de la silla.

I don't know a good explanation to that question. Thinking a bit I've realised that usually you use pronominal verbs when you are talking about dressing or undressing (vestirse, desvestirse, ponerse o quitarse los zapatos, la camisa, etc.), I guess with a reflexive meaning, although it's used in reciprocal meanings, too.

Maybe this could be an explanation of "levantarse el sombrero" or "quitarse el sombrero", though I can't be sure at all.

[chileno]

Originally Posted by laepelba

Nope ... I still don't get it. If I want to say "raise your hand" to a student, I say "levanta la mano", right? There's no "se" in it, yet I'm still using "la" and not "tu". I still don't know when to use the possessive and when to use the definite article.............

Ok, now I see better your problem....

Please think about what I am going to say whether is correct or not in English.

Raise your hand. = Levanta tu mano

Raise the (left) hand = Levanta la mano (izquierda)

I could've also used ...tu mano izquierda etc...

On the reflexive is different

La mano se levanta, y cae la guillotina.

The hand raises (itself), and the guillotine falls.

better?

Originally Posted by laepelba

You're right - I'm still stuck on this and can't get out...... Again:

Patience, that it is normal, but once you get out of it you'll be in for treat, and what's better, you'll get a way to "unstuck" yourself.

Originally Posted by Perikles

On the same subject, of which I too despair, can anyone explain why my dictionary gives these two different examples of lack of possessive adjective?

Levantó los ojos del libro he raised his eyes from his book.
Se levantó el sombrero he raised his hat.

Same thing that I mentioned to laepleba.

Does it work for you, if not let me know.

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by chileno

Ok, now I see better your problem....

Please think about what I am going to say whether is correct or not in English.

Raise your hand. = Levanta tu mano

Raise the (left) hand = Levanta la mano (izquierda)

I could've also used ...tu mano izquierda etc...

On the reflexive is different

La mano se levanta, y cae la guillotina.

The hand raises (itself), and the guillotine falls.

better?

I would actually never say "raise the hand". Ever. Unless I were giving a general imperative to raise the hand of someone else. "Raise the left hand of the person sitting to your right." But when would I ever say that??? I'm still stuck........ (sigh.....)

Originally Posted by chileno

Patience, that it is normal, but once you get out of it you'll be in for treat, and what's better, you'll get a way to "unstuck" yourself.

As far as the tapar/ocultar/cubrir thing ... I'll study it in RAE a bit and come back if I am still .......... stuck.........

Originally Posted by chileno

Same thing that I mentioned to laepleba.

Does it work for you, if not let me know.

If you're not going to call me Lou Ann, at least spell "laepelba" correctly!

[chileno]

Originally Posted by laepelba

I would actually never say "raise the hand". Ever. Unless I were giving a general imperative to raise the hand of someone else. "Raise the left hand of the person sitting to your right." But when would I ever say that??? I'm still stuck........ (sigh.....)

hmmm. I forewarned about being correct or not. Although I think what I said is correct, but you actually do not use it like that. Let's put you in a tribunal, in front of the judge....

When you are sworn, do they say: Raise your left hand... or do they say Raise the left hand?

Because after all you might get confused and take my left hand! uh!

In any event, do not worry about if you would ever use it. I think it is grammatically correct to say "Raise the left hand..."

Originally Posted by laepelba

As far as the tapar/ocultar/cubrir thing ... I'll study it in RAE a bit and come back if I am still .......... stuck.........

No, please go to Merriam-Webster to straighten yourself in your language, utilize what you already know.

I have the feeling once you find out, you are going to feel bad. It has happened to me.

Originally Posted by laepelba

If you're not going to call me Lou Ann, at least spell "laepelba" correctly!

OK Diane.

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

Originally Posted by Perikles

On the same subject, of which I too despair, can anyone explain why my dictionary gives these two different examples of lack of possessive adjective?

Levantó los ojos del libro he raised his eyes from his book.
Se levantó el sombrero he raised his hat.

The reason why they are included, I guess, is because one does not expect a possessive adjective in any of those sentences in Spanish, but they are actually expected in their English equivalents.

As for the reason why there are no possessive adjectives in those sentences, the first one is more or less easy: his eyes, as a part of his body, are obviously his, so in this case, it is redundant to use possessive adjectives, unless one is making an emphasis.

I think "del libro" instead of "su libro" is because the sentence "levantó los ojos de su libro" is ambiguous: his book's eyes?
Standard Spanish correctness is supposed to avoid amphibological sentences.

"Se levantó el sombrero" necessarily means he's wearing it, so one assumes it's his.
If one says "levantó su sombrero", he's either wearing it or he's lifting it from the floor, a table or somewhere else.


I hope I didn't make it more confusing.

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

Standard Spanish correctness is supposed to avoid amphibological sentences..

You have made my day. I love it when I come across English words I've never heard before, especially in a sentence relating to clarity. Amphibological is perfectly correct, but is not found at all in the BNC, whereas ambiguous occurs 800 times.

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

I think "del libro" instead of "su libro" is because the sentence "levantó los ojos de su libro" is ambiguous: his book's eyes? understood

"Se levantó el sombrero" necessarily means he's wearing it, so one assumes it's his. understood
If one says "levantó su sombrero", he's either wearing it or he's lifting it from the floor, a table or somewhere else. understood
.

Thanks - OK, so what would Levantó el sombrero mean? Simply that he lifted a hat, not necessarily his?

Originally Posted by laepelba

I would actually never say "raise the hand". Ever.

I think it's fair to say the English is out of step here, not Spanish, because at least both French and German as well as Spanish assume a default option for possession when it comes to parts of the body. It may sound odd in English, but that's what it's like elsewhere.

By the way, some comedian on stage once said: Will all those who believe in telekinesis please raise my right hand.

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by Perikles

You have made my day. I love it when I come across English words I've never heard before, especially in a sentence relating to clarity. Amphibological is perfectly correct, but is not found at all in the BNC, whereas ambiguous occurs 800 times.

That is EXACTLY what I said to her about that word. Well, almost. I had to look it up, too. Never heard of it. So, if you (who are infinitely smarter than I) have never heard of it, then I feel better.

Originally Posted by Perikles

I think it's fair to say the English is out of step here, not Spanish, because at least both French and German as well as Spanish assume a default option for possession when it comes to parts of the body. It may sound odd in English, but that's what it's like elsewhere.

By the way, some comedian on stage once said: Will all those who believe in telekinesis please raise my right hand.

I've heard that one before. And I'm sure that the English is out of step. The more Spanish I learn, the more I'm convinced that there are ideas that can be expressed in other languages that English will never be able to express. Spanish allows so many nuances of meaning that English simply can't come close!

I'll keep working on the pronominal vs. definite article stuff.... I'll get there eventually....

[irmamar]

Originally Posted by Perikles

Thanks - OK, so what would Levantó el sombrero mean? Simply that he lifted a hat, not necessarily his?

Necessarily from somewhere.

If you're wearing your brother's hat, for instance, you "te levantas el sombrero". But if you see a hat on the floor, you "levantas el sombrero del suelo".

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

Originally Posted by Perikles

You have made my day. I love it when I come across English words I've never heard before, especially in a sentence relating to clarity. Amphibological is perfectly correct, but is not found at all in the BNC, whereas ambiguous occurs 800 times.

I learnt it in Spanish in the context of ambiguous sense of sentences, so that's how I applied it in English.
You obviously wouldn't find it in everyday speech in Spanish either, but that's where the richness of languages is.

Originally Posted by Perikles

Thanks - OK, so what would Levantó el sombrero mean? Simply that he lifted a hat, not necessarily his?

Right. Irma has replied nicely to that one.

Originally Posted by Perikles

By the way, some comedian on stage once said: Will all those who believe in telekinesis please raise my right hand.