Ask a Question

(Create a thread)
Go Back   Spanish language learning forums > Spanish & English Languages > Grammar


The position of adjectives with nouns connected by "de"

 

This is the place for questions about conjugations, verb tenses, adverbs, adjectives, word order, syntax and other grammar questions for English or Spanish.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old January 29, 2010, 10:59 AM
gramatica gramatica is offline
Pearl
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 421
gramatica is on a distinguished road
Thank you very much. Just to make sure I understand this, could you please tell me if my explination is correct?

Quote:
Sustantivo + preposición + sustantivo: derecho de veto, puntos de venta, punto de encuentro, punto de vista, fondos de inversión, tipos de interés, plan de pensiones, plan de choque, estado de opinión, creación de empleo.


These are called "sinapsia" and the adjective goes after the entire "sinapsia". In English is it called a "sinapsia" also?

On the other hand, "libro de escritura" is a sintagma because there are many different kinds of books. The adjective can either go before or after "libro," right? el buen libro de escritura/el libro bueno de escritura

Pero no entiendo la diferencia entre una sintagma y un sinapsia. Porque se dice "punto de encuentro, punto de vista..." ¿No es lo mismo que decir "libro de escritura, libro de matemáticas..."?

Thank you very much
Reply With Quote
   
Get rid of these ads by registering for a free Tomísimo account.
  #12  
Old January 29, 2010, 11:52 AM
irmamar's Avatar
irmamar irmamar is offline
Diamond
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 7,071
Native Language: Español
irmamar is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by gramatica View Post
Thank you very much. Just to make sure I understand this, could you please tell me if my explination is correct?



These are called "sinapsia" and the adjective goes after the entire "sinapsia". In English is it called a "sinapsia" also?
I'm sorry, I don't know the word "sinapsia" or "lexía" in English , though I think they are called compound nouns. An example would be "brother-in-law", where you have a preposition between two nouns.

In Spanish, the position of adjectives are more free than in English. Sometimes you can put the adjective before (es una buena base de datos); other times, you can place the adjective following a noun or a sinapsia (es una base de datos muy buena).

Quote:

On the other hand, "libro de escritura" is a sintagma because there are many different kinds of books. The adjective can either go before or after "libro," right? el buen libro de escritura/el libro bueno de escritura

Pero no entiendo la diferencia entre una sintagma y un sinapsia. Porque se dice "punto de encuentro, punto de vista..." ¿No es lo mismo que decir "libro de escritura, libro de matemáticas..."?

Thank you very much
A sinapsia is a compound noun with a preposition and everybody understands this as a whole. For example, "estrella de mar" is a sinapsia because "estrella" means star, and "mar" means sea, but "estrella de mar" means starfish. "Estrella de mar" is a sinapsia because it is been used so often that it has become into a compound noun (even when their constituents are divided/joined by a preposition.

"Libro de escritura" is not a sinapsia (a compound noun) because it is not considered as a whole, since, as you said, there are many kind of books (de lectura, de física, de gramática,...): the subject of the book would change, but it would be "a book". "Punto de vista" means viewpoint, I can't change neither "punto" nor "vista" without changing the complete meaning. If I replaced "vista" with "encuentro", that would be another word, another compound noun with a completely different meaning, a whole meaning, I mean. I don't know if I'm able to explain clearly.
Anyway, sintactically, a sinapsia is also a sintagma preposicional, though considered as a whole, as a compound noun.

The adjective can go either before or after the noun: un buen libro de escritura / un libro bueno de escritura / un libro de escritura bueno.

I hope you're not confused now

Edit: Now I realise that you can't break a sinapsia with an adjective: una base buena de datos , una estrella preciosa de mar . Of course: this is a compound noun, you can't break it . You can do it with a "sintagma preposicional": una mesa horrible de madera.

Last edited by irmamar; January 29, 2010 at 11:57 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old January 29, 2010, 07:44 PM
gramatica gramatica is offline
Pearl
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 421
gramatica is on a distinguished road
Thank you very much

In short, one can say "una estrella de mar bonita" or "una bonita estrella de mar", but one cannot say "una estrella bonita de mar", right?

One can say "un libro de escritura bueno," un buen libro de escritura" or "un libro bueno de escritura"? Does this first one and last one mean the same thing?

Thank you
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old January 29, 2010, 11:41 PM
irmamar's Avatar
irmamar irmamar is offline
Diamond
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 7,071
Native Language: Español
irmamar is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by gramatica View Post
Thank you very much

In short, one can say "una estrella de mar bonita" or "una bonita estrella de mar", but one cannot say "una estrella bonita de mar", right?

One can say "un libro de escritura bueno," un buen libro de escritura" or "un libro bueno de escritura"? Does this first one and last one mean the same thing?

Thank you
1. Right
2. Yes, they do. It depends on the context. If I went to a bookshop, I'd say:

Deme un buen libro de escritura

As I'm saying first the adjective, the emphasis is in "buen", I want a very good book (surely, I want the best).

If I were speaking to a friend, I'd say:

Es un libro (de escritura) bueno

This book is enough good to learn.

Some adjectives change the meaning of a sentence if they go before or after the noun (un viejo amigo/un amigo viejo).

3. You're welcome.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old January 30, 2010, 12:44 AM
bobjenkins's Avatar
bobjenkins bobjenkins is offline
Diamond
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: España próximamente??
Posts: 2,923
Native Language: Inglés
bobjenkins is on a distinguished road
Así vamos a ver si lo entiendo...

"Nombre" - "Adjetivo" - "de" - "xxx"
"Adjetivo" - "Nombre" - "de" - "xxx"
"Nombre" - "de" - "xxx" - "Adjetivo"
__________________
"There´s always money in the banana stand michael!"
--george bluthe sir
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old January 30, 2010, 12:52 AM
irmamar's Avatar
irmamar irmamar is offline
Diamond
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 7,071
Native Language: Español
irmamar is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobjenkins View Post
Así vamos a ver si lo entiendo...

"Nombre" - "Adjetivo" - "de" - "xxx" Sometimes it's possible, when it's not a compound noun.
"Adjetivo" - "Nombre" - "de" - "xxx"
"Nombre" - "de" - "xxx" - "Adjetivo"
If you are not sure, place the adjective after the noun (the compound noun). That will be correct

Un libro de física bueno.
Una estrella de mar bonita.
Una olla a presión de buena calidad.
Unos zapatos de piel sucios.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old January 30, 2010, 11:40 AM
gramatica gramatica is offline
Pearl
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 421
gramatica is on a distinguished road
Mil gracias

I understand it now

Regards
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old January 30, 2010, 11:54 AM
irmamar's Avatar
irmamar irmamar is offline
Diamond
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 7,071
Native Language: Español
irmamar is on a distinguished road
You're welcome.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old January 30, 2010, 10:01 PM
bobjenkins's Avatar
bobjenkins bobjenkins is offline
Diamond
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: España próximamente??
Posts: 2,923
Native Language: Inglés
bobjenkins is on a distinguished road
Encontré que me ayuda pensar en eso así.....

El entero verbo es

(Estrella de mar)

Y el adjetivo puede estar puesto después o antes

aquí (Estrella de mar) o ahí
__________________
"There´s always money in the banana stand michael!"
--george bluthe sir
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old January 31, 2010, 12:38 AM
irmamar's Avatar
irmamar irmamar is offline
Diamond
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 7,071
Native Language: Español
irmamar is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobjenkins View Post
Encontré que me ayuda pensar en eso así.....

El entero verbo es

(Estrella de mar)

Y el adjetivo puede estar puesto después o antes

aquí (Estrella de mar) o ahí
Está muy bien, pero resulta que no es un verbo, sino dos sustantivos

We say "antepuesto" (before) or "pospuesto" (after)
Reply With Quote
Reply

 

Link to this thread
URL: 
HTML Link: 
BB Code: 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Site Rules

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Question about a couple sentences. "la compro"..."te espero".. ItsThaMonsta Grammar 2 November 09, 2009 06:59 PM
Una oración de un partido de fútbol ("el fraseo" y "para que" bobjenkins Translations 2 September 30, 2009 01:01 PM
Quick question about the "-aron"/"-ieron" ending chanman Grammar 6 May 30, 2009 11:20 PM
Verbs like "lavar", "cepillar", y "despertar" laepelba Grammar 9 February 02, 2009 03:01 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:53 AM.

Forum powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

X