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  #11  
Old August 22, 2010, 03:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laepelba View Post
Would you explain to me the difference between these two sentences?
Su hermano pequeño es más alto que yo.
Es más complicado de lo que tú crees.
If I understood the use of que in the first and de in the second, it would be extremely helpful!
Let me see if I can do a better job of explaining where I'm stuck...

In the first sentence I see: Subject/adjective + verb + más + descriptor + que + subject (+ understood verb "soy").

In the second sentence I see: (Understood subject eso/esto +) más + descriptor + de + object + subject + verb.

I hear you telling me that it canNOT be "Su hermano pequeño es mas alto de yo" nor can it be "Es más complicado que tú crees."

Unfortunately, I don't understand why. What is the difference between the situations in these two sentences so that I know when to use "más que" and when to use "más de" in situations like this? I have spent several hours trying to come up with sentences to practice this difference, but I can't understand the difference, and after several hours I have a very blank sheet of paper.
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  #12  
Old August 22, 2010, 04:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar View Post
I think Perikles quoted a great explanation (post #15) within the Hacer o estar thread).
What a brilliant post - the depressing thing is that I have abolutely no recollection of posting it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by laepelba View Post
In the first sentence I see: Subject/adjective + verb + más + descriptor + que + subject (+ understood verb "soy").

In the second sentence I see: (Understood subject eso/esto +) más + descriptor + de + object + subject + verb.

What is the difference between the situations in these two sentences
I wonder whether you are thinking too much - you do it quite often. The first is a direct comparison A > B, requiring que. (A conjuction is needed because of the ellipsed verb in the subordinate clause.) The second is more complex, requiring a clause with a finite verb in it. Since that clause also has a que, the first conjunction being substituted for de (preposition) relating to the object.
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  #13  
Old August 22, 2010, 04:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Perikles View Post
What a brilliant post - the depressing thing is that I have abolutely no recollection of posting it.
What is wrong with me? I don't see a post #15 in that thread. When I look at it, it ends with post #14 and there are no more pages....???

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Originally Posted by Perikles View Post
I wonder whether you are thinking too much - you do it quite often. The first is a direct comparison A > B, requiring que. (A conjuction is needed because of the ellipsed verb in the subordinate clause.) The second is more complex, requiring a clause with a finite verb in it. Since that clause also has a que, the first conjunction being substituted for de (preposition) relating to the object.
I've actually been told recently here at Tomisimo that I'm not doing enough to internalize what I'm learning and that I need to stay on one thing longer in order to actually learn it because I'm making the same mistakes over and over again. So I really want to *get* this before I move on to the next thing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perikles View Post
My grammar book says más que is used in what it calls 'comparisons of inequality' by which it means 'X is bigger than Y', where both are measured, with a specific difference. That is what I called an exact comparative.

It then goes on to say that más de is used when

1) comparisons are made with an element in another clause, where it will be followed by a pronoun plus que:

Es más rápida de lo que yo pensaba
Había menos personas de las que habíamos invitado
I copied this from your other post in the other thread. I guess that I don't see how the exact or direct comparisons work. (And I definitely don't understand what "ellipsed" and "finite" verbs are...)

Let's use this sentence as an example. (I found it in one of Malila's posts on a different thread.)
Quiero a Juan más que a ti, pero te quiero más de lo que crees.

According to what you're saying, in the first part of the sentence, the difference between how much I love Juan and how much I love you is a measurable difference? But that in the second part of the sentence, the difference between how much I love you and how much you think I love you is not measurable. Right? They both seem equally measurable/unmeasurable to me.............

I think that there is some big, huge elephant in the room that I am truly not seeing, and everyone else is wondering what the !@#$ is wrong with me........
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  #14  
Old August 22, 2010, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laepelba View Post
What is wrong with me? I don't see a post #15 in that thread. When I look at it, it ends with post #14 and there are no more pages....???
ooooops, we meant post no. 11, the one you quote

Quote:
Originally Posted by laepelba View Post
(And I definitely don't understand what "ellipsed" and "finite" verbs are...)
But you actually do this in your example - something ellipsed is understood and missed out, so in A is bigger than B (is big) the (is big) is ellipsed. A finite verb is a verb form which actually has meaning as a verb:

I sing - finite
to sing - not finite, infinitive
singing - not finite - gerund or pres. part.
I am singing - finite

In the ellipsed (is big), is is finite

(off topic: remove the punctuation and defy someone to make sense of in the ellipsed is big is is finite)

Quote:
Originally Posted by laepelba View Post
Let's use this sentence as an example. (I found it in one of Malila's posts on a different thread.)
Quiero a Juan más que a ti, pero te quiero más de lo que crees.

According to what you're saying, in the first part of the sentence, the difference between how much I love Juan and how much I love you is a measurable difference? But that in the second part of the sentence, the difference between how much I love you and how much you think I love you is not measurable. Right? They both seem equally measurable/unmeasurable to me.............
Quiero a Juan más que [quiero ellipsed] a ti

The magnitude for my love for Juan = A
The magnitude for my love for you = B

The above statement Quiero a Juan más que a ti
actually says A > B

In order to make that statement, it must be a measurable difference, even if only qualitative.

te quiero más de lo que crees This second part is not so specific, it is not a direct comparison, therefore not such a measurable comparison.

I'm not sure whether this logical distinction is helpful, because it is perhaps unconvincing. Ultimately, it is a grammatical distinction, which (sadly) does not need the logical explanation you seem to need.

Does that help?
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  #15  
Old August 22, 2010, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laepelba View Post
Let me see if I can do a better job of explaining where I'm stuck...

In the first sentence I see: Subject/adjective + verb + más + descriptor + que + subject (+ understood verb "soy").

In the second sentence I see: (Understood subject eso/esto +) más + descriptor + de + object + subject + verb.

I hear you telling me that it canNOT be "Su hermano pequeño es mas alto de yo" nor can it be "Es más complicado que tú crees."

Unfortunately, I don't understand why. What is the difference between the situations in these two sentences so that I know when to use "más que" and when to use "más de" in situations like this? I have spent several hours trying to come up with sentences to practice this difference, but I can't understand the difference, and after several hours I have a very blank sheet of paper.
Given that you're a mathmo...

The first sentence is saying f(X) > f(Y). His brother is taller than I am. It measures the same property and compares.

The second sentence is saying f(X) > g(X). I suspect there are examples fitting that structure which use más que, but I think it's a good rule of thumb that this type of comparison uses más de.

The Corpus del español* has more than ten thousand examples of each of más que and más de, so if you want to try to find exceptions...

* http://www.corpusdelespanol.org/
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  #16  
Old August 22, 2010, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pjt33 View Post
The second sentence is saying f(X) > g(X).
damn - that's what I was trying to say.

Could it not be taken on a very simple level, that if the second clause involves a que, the first que is avoided and becomes a de ? I know this is not a grammatical explanation, but it is perhaps a good mnemonic.
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  #17  
Old August 22, 2010, 08:34 AM
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Comparisons against constants also use de. Peso más de 70 kilos.
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  #18  
Old August 22, 2010, 08:42 AM
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So no post #15... I definitely need some rest and take a careful look at my sources.

@Pjt & Perikles: Thank you...
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  #19  
Old August 22, 2010, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar View Post
So no post #15... I definitely need some rest and take a careful look at my sources.
I'm sure it wasn't a deliberate attempt at winding somebody up ....
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  #20  
Old August 22, 2010, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Perikles View Post
But you actually do this in your example - something ellipsed is understood and missed out, so in A is bigger than B (is big) the (is big) is ellipsed. A finite verb is a verb form which actually has meaning as a verb:
<-- When you say "has meaning", do you mean contains a complete subject/action meaning (even if the subject is implied and not necessarily stated...?
<-- So "ellipsed" is like when I said "understood"? It's not written/said as part of the sentence, but it's understood to be there?


I sing - finite
to sing - not finite, infinitive
singing - not finite - gerund or pres. part.
I am singing - finite

In the ellipsed (is big), is is finite

Quiero a Juan más que [quiero ellipsed] a ti

The magnitude for my love for Juan = A
The magnitude for my love for you = B

The above statement Quiero a Juan más que a ti
actually says A > B

In order to make that statement, it must be a measurable difference, even if only qualitative.

te quiero más de lo que crees This second part is not so specific, it is not a direct comparison, therefore not such a measurable comparison.
<-- I believe that this is what's tripping me up here. I can imagine this statement being "te quiero más que crees que te quiero" where the comparison is between **how much I love you** and **how much (you think) I love you**.

I'm not sure whether this logical distinction is helpful, because it is perhaps unconvincing. Ultimately, it is a grammatical distinction, which (sadly) does not need the logical explanation you seem to need.
<-- It feels like the "logic" of it has escaped me. I wish I could see the grammatical distinction, because I feel like I'd be better off....

Does that help?
<-- I'm on the path...
Quote:
Originally Posted by pjt33 View Post
Given that you're a mathmo... A mathmo! I like that descriptor.

The first sentence is saying f(X) > f(Y). His brother is taller than I am. It measures the same property and compares.

The second sentence is saying f(X) > g(X). I suspect there are examples fitting that structure which use más que, but I think it's a good rule of thumb that this type of comparison uses más de.
<-- I do see that this is what Perikles was saying ... and I understand the concept, but still am not always seeing it applied. Like what I wrote above (I can imagine this statement being "te quiero más que crees que te quiero" where the comparison is between **how much I love you** and **how much (you think) I love you**). It seems to me that even in this statement, it's still f(x) and f(y) like in the first part because both are still talking about a measurement of my love for you.

The Corpus del español* has more than ten thousand examples of each of más que and más de, so if you want to try to find exceptions...

* http://www.corpusdelespanol.org/
<-- I don't have time right now to give this link the look that it deserves, but will get to it either tonight or tomorrow. I look forward to analyzing more examples...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perikles View Post
damn - that's what I was trying to say.
<-- That IS what you said! Comparing apples to apples, vs. comparing apples to oranges. I see that much. It's just the way I define apples and oranges...

Could it not be taken on a very simple level, that if the second clause involves a que, the first que is avoided and becomes a de ? I know this is not a grammatical explanation, but it is perhaps a good mnemonic.
<-- So let me ask this: Do the "más de" phrases ALWAYS have either "lo que" OR a specific quantity? Stated in reverse, is there ever an instance where "más de" is used (1) without a specific quantity AND (2) without "lo que"? If not, then I need to restudy the "lo que" part and not the "más de" part.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perikles View Post
I'm sure it wasn't a deliberate attempt at winding somebody up ....
Honestly, what I thought was that some people (like moderators) have certain permissions that others of us don't, and I figured that maybe Malila really DOES see more than 15 posts when she looks at it, but others of us don't... It was post #11 that was helpful to me anyway...

Thanks, all! I won't be online much this afternoon/evening, but will work on this again either tonight or tomorrow ... and will answer more (or ask more ) then. Truly, I thank you all for the energy you put into answering my ridiculous volume of questions.........
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