Some Subjunctive Questions

[rtyhgn85]

1. I'm trying to say "I wanted you to tell me that she would be late."

Is this right: Quería que me digas que llegara tarde.

2. I'm stuck on this one too: She asked me to tell you not to be late. I have no idea what verb form of llegar I need to use

Me pidió que te dijera no...

3. What is the difference between the ara and iera/ase and iese past subjunctive? I was taught the ara/iera so I was wondering.

4. When do I use the subjunctive with quizás/tal vez?

[conejodescarado]

Also curious on this... the two forms of the past subjunctive are confusing me as to why they exist.

I have a feeling your (1) should have the subjunctive in the past, so instead of expressing "I wanted that you tell me...", you express "I wanted that you told me...".

[Perikles]

Also curious on this... the two forms of the past subjunctive are confusing me as to why they exist..I can answer this one - they are derived from the Latin imperfect subjunctive and pluperfect subjunctive, which then took on the meaning of imperfect subjunctive in Spanish:

cantarem -> cantara; canta(vi)ssem -> cantase

For more info than any normal person could assimilate, see here (http://www.orbilat.com/Languages/Spanish/History/Subjunctive/Spanish-Subjunctive_Evolution-04.html). See section B for the above. :)

[aleCcowaN]

1. I'm trying to say "I wanted you to tell me that she would be late."

Is this right: Quería que me digas que llegara tarde.

Provided it all happened in the past

"Quería** que me dijeras que iba a llegar°° tarde"

** It could be "quise" depending on the context.
°° It might be "llegaría" but its not advisable in this case -mainly for "educational reasons"

2. I'm stuck on this one too: She asked me to tell you not to be late. I have no idea what verb form of llegar I need to use

Me pidió que te dijera no...

Me pidió que te dijera que no llegaras tarde

Me pidió [esto] = Me pidió [que te dijera (esto)] = Me pidió [que te dijera (que no llegaras tarde)]

3. What is the difference between the ara and iera/ase and iese past subjunctive? I was taught the ara/iera so I was wondering.

The easiest way: stick to -ra and perhaps use -se just to avoid monotony.
They are -theoretically- interchangeable forms.

4. When do I use the subjunctive with quizás/tal vez?
Proper answers to your four questions demand about 15 printed pages.

Subjunctive is the "default case", but speakers may use indicative either to express a lesser degree of uncertainty or to present it as a hypothesis.



I have a feeling your (1) should have the subjunctive in the past, so instead of expressing "I wanted that you tell me...", you express "I wanted that you told me...".It said "I wanted you to tell me". Are "I wanted that you tell me" and "I wanted that you told me" possible in English?:confused:

[conejodescarado]

It said "I wanted you to tell me". Are "I wanted that you tell me" and "I wanted that you told me" possible in English?:confused:

No, they're not valid English, but I find it helps to "think" the way a Spanish mind does. Maybe I'm just odd. When I'm speaking/writing another language, I re-wire my thoughts so I think in a different order, which fits the particular language. In Spanish, you say "Quería que...", which literally translates into English as "I wanted that...". If you think it out in English this way it feels more natural when you construct sentences this way in Spanish.

Sorry for the confusion :)

I can answer this one - they are derived from the Latin imperfect subjunctive and pluperfect subjunctive, which then took on the meaning of imperfect subjunctive in Spanish:

cantarem -> cantara; canta(vi)ssem -> cantase

For more info than any normal person could assimilate, see here (http://www.orbilat.com/Languages/Spanish/History/Subjunctive/Spanish-Subjunctive_Evolution-04.html). See section B for the above. :)

So does this mean they're used interchangeably, or should one be preferred over the other?

hablara vs. hablase

[aleCcowaN]

No, they're not valid English, but I find it helps to "think" the way a Spanish mind does. Maybe I'm just odd. When I'm speaking/writing another language, I re-wire my thoughts so I think in a different order, which fits the particular language. In Spanish, you say "Quería que...", which literally translates into English as "I wanted that...". If you think it out in English this way it feels more natural when you construct sentences this way in Spanish.

Sorry for the confusion :)Oh, I see!

Your approach of "deconstructing" the new language is good, but maybe in this case you are paying too much attention to the time coordination. The old "correct norm" -that from Spain- stated automatic coordination no matter the time set as it had to follow Latin consecutia temporum (tense agreement) "etsi ruat caelum":

Quería que me dijeras (ayer)
Quería que me dijeras (ahora)
Quería que me dijeras (mañana)
Quería que me dijeras (en un tiempo indeterminado)

The fact is that way you have to pay attention to context, intonation and other elements of communication to understand what the speaker is really saying. Hearing "Pero quería que me dijeras..." with a certain intonation left you guessing if the speaker had given up about being told and s/he is now reproaching you about it, or s/he still has hopes about you telling it and s/he's asking so.

The new "correct norm" states the theory of the time set in the "speaker's mind":

Quería que vinieras (hoy) -speaker has transported himself to the moment he "wanted": "you are coming now, but I wanted it in the past"-
Quería que vengas (hoy) -speaker discriminates the act of "wanting" from the act of "coming"-

What is still wrong is saying "Quería que vengas (ayer)".

That is, you may illustrate "quería que vinieras...." as "I wanted that you came (yesterday):bad:" or "I wanted that you come (today):bad:" but I don't think it may help you thinking "I wanted that you came (today):bad:" as it suggest -to my developing "English brain"- a subjunctive raised to the power of two. (Not) Surprisingly, the best way I found to represent it is "I wanted you to come".

[Perikles]

So does this mean they're used interchangeably, or should one be preferred over the other?

hablara vs. hablaseMy grammar book says:

They are used more or less interchangeably in the Peninsula (with a slight preference especially in Andalusia, for the -ra forms in speech); in Latin America the -ra form is strongly preferred in speech. Both are used universally in the written language.

[conejodescarado]

@aleCcowaN, muchas gracias por el montón de ejemplos, has sido muy amable :)

@Perikle, that clears that up for me, thanks! My dictionary software just lists the conjugations as "Imperfecto de subjuntivo I" and "Imperfecto de subjuntivo II".

I should really invest in a proper grammar book.