Uvular trill in Spanish?

[SPX]

Okay, first off, this is my first post so if this is in the wrong section (grammar didn't seem quite right, but neither did anything else) please don't send me to the gallows.

Second, I am one of those people who have NEVER been able to trill. I am still a total neophyte when it comes to Spanish, but I have been learning on and off for 15 years, ever since I took my first class in high school. All this time I have not been able to trill and it's caused me a considerable amount of distress in trying to learn the language and generated a good deal of bashfulness when it comes to holding conversations with native speakers.

Long story short, this morning I had what I thought was a massive breakthrough. I realized that something I've done for years--the cat purring sound--allowed me to roll my Rs and it was like a wave of liberation from the dark confines of Anti-Trill Prison. I was like, "I've done it! I've cracked the code of the trill!" However, after further research it looks like what I've figured out how to do is a uvular, French-style trill and not an alveolar trill.

To me, even if it's not the "correct" trill for Spanish, it sounds distinctly better than what I've been doing for the past decade and a half. However, after reading some things online some people make it out almost as if I should be crucified for trying to pronounce perro with a uvular trill instead of an alveolar trill, with one poster saying that it's simply "very, very wrong."

So obviously it is best for me to learn the alveolar trill and I intend to continue to try to do so. However, a few questions for those with a lot more experience than myself:

1. Does anyone here use the uvular trill for Spanish and is it common for non-native speakers to do so?

2. Will native speakers consider it blasphemy or simply a little odd? Furthermore, is the difference really that noticeable?

3. Is is better to pronounce RR words with a uvular trill rather than no trill at all? The answer to this, to me, seems obvious, but again, based on some of the things I read I have to wonder.


Thanks for any help. . .

[Rusty]

Hi! Welcome to the forums.

Don't despair. You don't have to trill an 'r' to speak Spanish. If you want to learn how to pronounce it correctly, though, the very best teacher will be a native speaker. Listen very carefully to how it sounds and try, try, try. It can take months to get it right.

Don't use your uvula to produce a trilled 'r'.

Find a native speaker, and read all we've posted in our forums about how to reproduce the sound.

The clipped 'r' is also important to get right and, once again, a native speaker will be your best teacher. There are also posts in our forums that'll help you.

The American English 'r' sound is quite unique. It isn't found in Spanish at all. Perhaps the native speaker you find would enjoy learning how to pronounce the American 'r'.

[SPX]

I actually went down to Guatemala and studied at a Spanish school for two months, so I've had my exposure to native speakers. They still couldn't get me to trill, though. For that matter, they couldn't even really teach me a lot of Spanish. Some people say that learning a language from people who know little to know English is "immersive," but I just thought it was frustrating.

So like I said, I figure a uvular trill is better than nothing.

I also found this vid where it seems like she's saying to use the uvular sound as a basis for an alveolar trill. I've been trying this and I think maybe I've actually gotten it a couple of times, but I can't see how you would actually work the sound into a word. I mean, to say "perro" I would have to go "per" then rev up my rolling RRs and then carry into the "ro."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLsUXDkVKYA

[Rusty]

The lady in the video rolls the 'r' by forcing air over her tongue while it is lightly touching the alvelor ridge. She never mentions the uvula. The rolled 'r' sound is the vibration of the tongue. It took me longer than 2 months to learn how to roll the 'r'.

See the illustration in this article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alveolar_ridge). Lightly touch the tip of your tongue near numbers 4 and 5 and blow air until you get your tongue to vibrate. If it doesn't, the pressure of your tongue is too great against the ridge.
(The uvula is number 9 in the illustration. It is not used to produce the rolled 'r'.)

[SPX]

Maybe I can't tell the difference. Because she talks about doing the cat purring sound and it sounds the same as when I do it, just maybe mine is a little less like a machine gun. I make that sound in the same way as if I was gargling water, though.

Thanks for the illustration. I assure you I know the mechanics behind how it's supposed to work, though. I have talked to people who can do it, read a thousand tutorials on how to do it, watched plenty of YouTube vids, etc.

Maybe I wasn't clear in my original post. I'm asking about alternatives if you can't figure out how to make the sound in the correct way. Because after 15 years I still can't do it. Maybe I'll figure it out tomorrow, or maybe I'll figure it out in another 15 years, but I'm trying to figure out what to do today.

[Rusty]

If you're mimicking the sound she is making, you're correctly rolling the 'r'. Your tongue is vibrating as you force air over (around) it. Congratulations!

[SPX]

I guess I'm frustrated. I went from thinking that I figured it out after all this time only to be told, "No, you're still not doing it right." That sucks.

If you're mimicking the sound she is making, you're correctly rolling the 'r'. Your tongue is vibrating as you force air over (around) it. Congratulations!

Well it must not be the same because I can do it without my tongue being anywhere near the roof of my mouth. It's all in the throat.

[Rusty]

Then it may indeed sound like you're gargling.

Try saying the word 'hard', but taking great care to blow a lot of air after the plosive 'ha' sound. Then slowly raise your tongue upward, towards the roof of your mouth. Let it vibrate in the air you're blowing. When you can feel your tongue vibrating in the wind, that's the rolled 'r'. Finish the word by hitting your tongue on the palate (to say the 'd' sound). The vibration doesn't need to sound like a machine gun (meaning an extended roll). Your tongue just needs to vibrate a couple of times to make the rolled 'r' sound.

Once you have it figured out, change the initial consonant to 'c'. You should, with some practice, be able to say 'carro' after awhile.

Eventually change the word to 'pear'. When you can make your tongue vibrate, you should be able to say 'perro' after awhile. Again, don't worry that you can't prolong the rolled 'r' (the vibration) very long to begin with. With time, you'll be able to vibrate your tongue continuously, as long as you've got air enough in your lungs to produce the vibration.

[SPX]

Thanks for the tips. I'll give it a shot.

Usually when I try the "put the tip of your tongue on the palate and blow" exercises I just end up almost hyperventilating from blowing so hard. Apparently there's something I'm not doing right, but I've tried all kinds of tongue positions and configurations.

Maybe some people really just can't do it. . .

[chileno]

Thanks for the tips. I'll give it a shot.

Usually when I try the "put the tip of your tongue on the palate and blow" exercises I just end up almost hyperventilating from blowing so hard. Apparently there's something I'm not doing right, but I've tried all kinds of tongue positions and configurations.

Maybe some people really just can't do it. . .

Don't despair. Sometimes just the minutest detail will open up your eyes/mind.

Can you figure out how an Irishman talks, for example that "my/me friend" way of saying it?

:)

[poli]

The uvular 'r' is a very regional usage which you will often hear among people from Puerto Rico, and I think I have heard it in Spain. It's de rigueur in French.

The rolled 'r' in Spanish is used in varying intensity depending on the region. People from Barranquilla rrrealy rrroll their r's. One thing is certain:
pero and perro should sound different no matter what region the language
is spoken.

[SPX]

Don't despair. Sometimes just the minutest detail will open up your eyes/mind.

Can you figure out how an Irishman talks, for example that "my/me friend" way of saying it?

:)


Thanks for the encouragement.

I confess you lost me with the Irishman bit, though. . .



The uvular 'r' is a very regional usage which you will often hear among people from Puerto Rico, and I think I have heard it in Spain. It's de rigueur in French.

The rolled 'r' in Spanish is used in varying intensity depending on the region. People from Barranquilla rrrealy rrroll their r's. One thing is certain:
pero and perro should sound different no matter what region the language
is spoken.

That is interesting about Puerto Rico. I did read about that in a few places. I wonder why they ended up saying the RR differently from their Spanish-speaking brethren in other parts of the world. . .

I also read that some small percentage of native speakers are never able to master the alveolar RR for whatever reason and many of them will use a uvular RR as a substitute. (This seems to basically be where I am at this point.)

For the many years that I have been trying to learn Spanish, when it came to RR words I would either avoid them if possible or I would just try to elongate them and throw in a little sound that kinda sorta almost in a way sometimes made it sound like there was a very brief roll when I hit the RRs in the word.

If nothing else being able to roll my Rs via the uvular method at least seems like a step up from what I have been doing. I guess if someone asks me where I learned my Spanish I'll just say, "Puerto Rico, of course!" LOL.

[Perikles]

Well, I can't do it, and I'm absolutely convinced that I never shall be able to. :mad::mad:

[SPX]

Maybe you should join the uvular brotherhood.

We'll just take the whole language over, one convert at a time.

[chileno]

Thanks for the encouragement.

I confess you lost me with the Irishman bit, though. . .


You're welcome.

No problem with the Irishman's pronunciation, it was worth the try though. :)

[SPX]

I also wonder if a lot of native French and German speakers just stick with the uvular trill when they start learning Spanish. It seems like a significant portion of them would.

[poli]

I know that Puerto Rico had a large French immigration, because there are so many Puerto Ricans with French surnames (Mainsonet, Betancourt, Lebron etc). Many settled in agricultural areas. Nowadays the gutteral accent is considered jíbaro. Jíbaro is a Puerto Rican word for hillbilly. I was told that the gutteral 'r' is not generally used in urban San Juan.
A woman I worked with from Lajas (a very small town far from San Juan) told me she thought that the gutteral accent which she used among her friends, came from immigrants from Galicia, but here in the forum in previous posts, I was assured that this gutteral 'r' was not at all gallego. I am assuming that this unique pronunciation in a product if French immigration.

[SPX]

Interesting. That makes sense.

I did read that the uvular trill is considered "hillbilly" among the higher classes, though I also read that it appears in all levels of social strata. I also read that some Puerto Ricans today intentionally use it as a source of "national pride."

[Luna Azul]

Well, I can't do it, and I'm absolutely convinced that I never shall be able to. :mad::mad:

No problem. A foreign accent can be very charming and attractive... why try to change it? :p:love:

SPX = I also wonder if a lot of native French and German speakers just stick with the uvular trill when they start learning Spanish. It seems like a significant portion of them would.

Oh yes, they do. Especially the French in my opinion. They also have problems pronouncing the Spanish "J".

[SPX]

Oh yes, they do. Especially the French in my opinion. They also have problems pronouncing the Spanish "J".

I see. Thanks for the response.

I remember when I was in Guatemala one of my teachers there told me that she really loved to hear French students speak Spanish because she thought it sounded so "pretty." Not sure exactly why that was, though.