Muchos salieron bravos

[somediego]

Hola, I'm reading a poem by Borges "Milonga de los morenos", and is confused with the following stanza:

En el barrio del Retiro
Hubo mercado de esclavos;
De buena disposición
Y muchos salieron bravos.



I guess "de buena disposion y muchos salieron bravos" means (the market was) "of good condition and many (slaves) were traded" but I seriously doubt it is correct. Is "salieron bravos" an expression? Pls help me. Gracias!

[poli]

muchos salieron bravos-- in the Spanish I know means many left angry, but context here indicates otherwise. It will be interesting to see what others say, but I guess I'd be angry too if I saw an active slave market.

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

"Bravo" in Spanish can have several meanings --fierce, brave, dangerous, violent, formidable...--, some according to the region, like the one Poli mentioned, to be angry.

In the context of the milonga, the meaning of "bravo" should be "brave". In another stanza, the poem says that during the war that gave birth to the country there was a regiment of black people who fought courageously.

"De buena disposición" here seems to be describing the physical appearance of the slaves: strong and healthy.

[aleCcowaN]

En el barrio del Retiro
hubo mercado de esclavos;
de buena disposición
y muchos salieron bravos.



de buena disposición (el mercado de esclavos***) = offering abundant quality "products" and great variety of "products".

y muchos salieron bravos = and many of the "products" were "untameable" (cheeky, surly, rash, stubborn, etc.) -this is said as a very positive quality (surely not to the "owners")-.



*** se lo ha llevado el tiempo; el tiempo, que es el olvido

[chileno]

y muchos salieron bravos = and many of the "products" were "untameable" (cheeky, surly, rash, stubborn, etc.) -this is said as a very positive quality (surely not of the "owners")-.



*** se lo ha llevado el tiempo; el tiempo, que es el olvido
:):):)

[JPablo]

En el barrio del Retiro
hubo mercado de esclavos;
de buena disposición
y muchos salieron bravos.


Hi, Alec, the Initial Capitalization at every verse is typical in Spanish poetry, so I am not sure why you make these lower case? :thinking:

[aleCcowaN]

Hi, Alec, the Initial Capitalization at every verse is typical in Spanish poetry, so I am not sure why you make these lower case? :thinking:

Yes, typical -but not general nor the rule- in old poetry from Spain and ... Spain. That is not the general way, and mainly that it is not the way Borges wrote it. That capitalization is just an Anglicization, as they are Español or Los Gozos y las Sombras.

For instance, here (http://cvc.cervantes.es/obref/rimas/rimas/rima38.htm) we have one of the most famous Rimas by Bécquer. The current text, that one in CORDE and the original manuscript, have no unnecessary capitalization, while one of the original printed version did (you got the links on that page).

By the way, I couldn't found a decent video in Youtube about that milonga (Milonga de/l marfil negro/Milonga de los morenos). If they didn't know tango, they knew milonga even less (and nobody explained them that tangos and milongas aren't sung but spoken as if they were sung). I'd rather see tango ignored than dealt that way.

[JPablo]

Oh, thanks, Alec, I just saw the link and this from the Panhispánico:

3.5. Antes era costumbre, en los poemas, emplear la mayúscula al principio de cada verso, razón por la cual las letras de esta forma tomaron el nombre de «versales» (mayúsculas de imprenta). En la poesía moderna, esta costumbre está en desuso.

(I saw this usage in a lot of the 27 Generation poetry...)

As for that milonga... this is hapless, as I cannot help you there...

[somediego]

Gracias a todos! I'm convinced by aleCcowan's explanation, thanks!

By the way, I couldn't found a decent video in Youtube about that milonga (Milonga de/l marfil negro/Milonga de los morenos). If they didn't know tango, they knew milonga even less (and nobody explained them that tangos and milongas aren't sung but spoken as if they were sung). I'd rather see tango ignored than dealt that way.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDLlzhFOd8E

How about this one?

And Pls forgive my poor understanding of español. I'm still not clear about the "salieron". Can anyone tell me the exact meaning of this word? because I think the slaves were coming and not leaving.

[Rusty]

salieron = turned out, came out

[somediego]

Thank U Rusty!

[aleCcowaN]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDLlzhFOd8E

How about this one?
.

Nice as music, utterly horrible as milonga! A style mishap.

To give you the precise notion it is as typical as cowboys playing and singing jazz with their guitars beside the bonfire -like most things made by Broadway, Hollywood and other Crappywoods all around the world related to tango-. They simply can't get it.

The only thing I've seen in recent years from US' television that came close in style is this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrKGM5hck1A

That tango, Malajunta, has a rhythm on the verge of milonga.

Here's a milonga:

Negra María
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_BhE6wtnPo)
which is in the end music from tropical African roots. This particular piece is played in Negro style.

[somediego]

Nice as music, utterly horrible as milonga! A style mishap.

To give you the precise notion it is as typical as cowboys playing and singing jazz with their guitars beside the bonfire -like most things made by Broadway, Hollywood and other Crappywoods all around the world related to tango-. They simply can't get it.

That tango, Malajunta, has a rhythm on the verge of milonga.

Here's a milonga:

Negra María
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_BhE6wtnPo)
which is in the end music from tropical African roots. This particular piece is played in Negro style.


I see. If the the original milonga is like Negra Maria, I guess some change of the style happened in years. Like this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTdztdLpJlk

As I haven't heard any milonga until recently, I'm Ok with all the styles.

[aleCcowaN]

I see. If the the original milonga is like Negra Maria, I guess some change of the style happened in years. Like this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTdztdLpJlk

As I haven't heard any milonga until recently, I'm Ok with all the styles.

In spite of the name, that is a tango-canción. This video is an excellent example of tango being "spoken" instead of sung.

You're right, of course, about changes in style happened in decades, but you have to consider that the term milonga has a wide meaning: musically, it describes a sub-genre that provides the rhythmic base of candombe, combined similar Negro folk music from River Plate with tango; also milonga was in everyday language a social gathering where people dances, hence it describes also all the forms of tango that are suitable to dance. But, particularly, Borges uses "milonga" as a term equiparable to ode, and there's a message there: common local folks are capable to be the protagonists of a local epic which transcends the provincial level to connect with concerns that are common to mankind.

I wonder what would Borges write nowadays. One of the most impressive elements to me in "Milonga del marfil negro" was:

De tarde en tarde en el Sur
me mira un rostro moreno,
trabajado por los años
y a la vez triste y sereno

I was about 14 when I heard it first time, I lived there, the text had many layers and you could "see" exactly what he was saying: for instance, the last members of a lineage born in "el barrio del mondongo" that were fading away in a sea of racial mixing (It's incredible how Borges could convey a dozen meanings with a few words, simple ones). Today the same area has thousands and thousands of immigrants: those "negros" from Dominican Republic and Haiti share spaces with "negros en serio" coming mainly from Sierra Leone, Liberia, Senegal, Nigeria, Cameroon, Angola and many other countries, what turned the place into a noisy, messy and vibrant one (the dirtier part is just a general trend of the whole country).

EDIT: I've just remembered this typical milonga (it starts at 1:15)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjVuHpTzSUc

[somediego]

In spite of the name, that is a tango-canción. This video is an excellent example of tango being "spoken" instead of sung.

You're right, of course, about changes in style happened in decades, but you have to consider that the term milonga has a wide meaning: musically, it describes a sub-genre that provides the rhythmic base of candombe, combined similar Negro folk music from River Plate with tango; also milonga was in everyday language a social gathering where people dances, hence it describes also all the forms of tango that are suitable to dance. But, particularly, Borges uses "milonga" as a term equiparable to ode, and there's a message there: common local folks are capable to be the protagonists of a local epic which transcends the provincial level to connect with concerns that are common to mankind.

I wonder what would Borges write nowadays. One of the most impressive elements to me in "Milonga del marfil negro" was:

De tarde en tarde en el Sur
me mira un rostro moreno,
trabajado por los años
y a la vez triste y sereno

I was about 14 when I heard it first time, I lived there, the text had many layers and you could "see" exactly what he was saying: for instance, the last members of a lineage born in "el barrio del mondongo" that were fading away in a sea of racial mixing (It's incredible how Borges could convey a dozen meanings with a few words, simple ones). Today the same area has thousands and thousands of immigrants: those "negros" from Dominican Republic and Haiti share spaces with "negros en serio" coming mainly from Sierra Leone, Liberia, Senegal, Nigeria, Cameroon, Angola and many other countries, what turned the place into a noisy, messy and vibrant one (the dirtier part is just a general trend of the whole country).

EDIT: I've just remembered this typical milonga (it starts at 1:15)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjVuHpTzSUc


I think I got what you are saying. The world changes, and good things die everyday. I think all the milongas by Borges, like all his poems, are retrospective with a tint of sadness (but never overwhelmed by it), so the music created after the words (right?) is not party-like. I found some milongas of Borges on Youtube and they are all in slow and melancholic tunes.

[aleCcowaN]

I think I got what you are saying. The world changes, and good things die everyday. I think all the milongas by Borges, like all his poems, are retrospective with a tint of sadness (but never overwhelmed by it), so the music created after the words (right?) is not party-like. I found some milongas of Borges on Youtube and they are all in slow and melancholic tunes.

You got it, almost. Tango as a musical genre is melancholic, including milonga as a part of it. Not the quintessential melancholic musical genre, but only by a whisker. The Indian subjugated, dispossessed, ignored and left to his fate; the African snatched from his land and family to be thrown into slavery in a quite different world; the male immigrant failing to adapt, who had to live his life without love; everything tints tango with the mood of a chill, grey and rainy week.

You can tune up or down the melancholic content in every song. When you hear a song with lyrics by Borges you find a rhythm that follows the story and it is melancholic because it describes the past. But Borges called his poems "milongas" because they describe kind of odysseys, ancient tales and long ago gone contexts, and not because he had some rhythmic intention.

In the last video I posted you've probably seen the quick movements and change of directions that comes with a milonga. Well, any story including strife, changing circumstances or twists of fate are called milongas by the folk. "Basta de milongas" (stop being indecisive), "no me vengas con milongas" (I don't buy your excuses) and a lot of popular phrases are a proof of the attributes of the word.

So, everything evolves, but the fact that you hear what you hear when a "milonga" with lyrics by Borges is played, is not because of evolution but two different levels -the verbal one and the musical one- coexisting without a conflict needed to be resolved. And THAT is indeed an essential aspect of the culture behind all of it.

[somediego]

You got it, almost. Tango as a musical genre is melancholic, including milonga as a part of it. Not the quintessential melancholic musical genre, but only by a whisker. The Indian subjugated, dispossessed, ignored and left to his fate; the African snatched from his land and family to be thrown into slavery in a quite different world; the male immigrant failing to adapt, who had to live his life without love; everything tints tango with the mood of a chill, grey and rainy week.

You can tune up or down the melancholic content in every song. When you hear a song with lyrics by Borges you find a rhythm that follows the story and it is melancholic because it describes the past. But Borges called his poems "milongas" because they describe kind of odysseys, ancient tales and long ago gone contexts, and not because he had some rhythmic intention.

In the last video I posted you've probably seen the quick movements and change of directions that comes with a milonga. Well, any story including strife, changing circumstances or twists of fate are called milongas by the folk. "Basta de milongas" (stop being indecisive), "no me vengas con milongas" (I don't buy your excuses) and a lot of popular phrases are a proof of the attributes of the word.

So, everything evolves, but the fact that you hear what you hear when a "milonga" with lyrics by Borges is played, is not because of evolution but two different levels -the verbal one and the musical one- coexisting without a conflict needed to be resolved. And THAT is indeed an essential aspect of the culture behind all of it.

Thank you for the clarification, Alec. Everything （language, culture, history, music--as I'm not very sensitive of it) of milonga is deep to me. It's good to talk with someone in the know. Gracias!