Impersonal se

[Psychosid]

Hi can anybody give me a little explanation, what is the difference between:

olvidé el libro (i forgot the book)

and

se me olvidó el libro (literally: it forgot me the book)

I know that it is something regarding an unintentional action, but is the first example not the same thing??

i dont get it.

Psid

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

You can take a look at this other thread (http://forums.tomisimo.org/showthread.php?t=13735) to see a discussion on it. (There are some more answers here (http://forums.tomisimo.org/showthread.php?t=14303) too.) :)

[Psychosid]

Thanks Angelica, but my brain is not working well today, i just dont understand the difference between i forgot the book and the book forgot itself to me,

if i said: olvidé el libro or se me olvidó el libro, am i saying the same thing? what context would i use the se me construction? or is it just a personal preference on the part of the speaker??

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

Take a look at my note about "voz media" (Post #8 (http://forums.tomisimo.org/showpost.php?p=128110&postcount=8) here (http://forums.tomisimo.org/showthread.php?t=13735)). There are things beyond one's control.

[Psychosid]

Thanks for your efforts Angelica, i think that your last sentence "there are things beyond ones control" is a help, for example; olvidé el libro: i forgot the book (when really there was no excuse for forgetting it?)

and se me olvidó el libro: (when maybe i was so busy with lots of things happening, that it is perfectly understandable that it sliiped my mind?)

would i be on the right lines with this?

[Rusty]

When it is not your fault, or when it was not your intention, you use the accidental 'se' (not the impersonal 'se', if it makes any difference to you to call it that).
The Spanish don't like to take blame for forgetting something, so the accidental 'se' is used MUCH MORE often than you would think. In other words, avoid saying "olvidé el libro."

[Julvenzor]

Si sirve de ayuda, yo diría que la clave está en distinguir entre objetos y conceptos. Como comenta Rusty, los nativos tenemos cierta predilección por quitarnos las culpas; así pues, suele emplearse principalmente "se me" cuando hablamos de objetos. Por el contrario, a mí se me hace bastante más común (al menos por mi zona) el uso "normal" de "olvidé" en aquellos casos en que nos referimos a olvidar conocimientos o citas en ambientes formales:

Olvidé cuál es la fórmula química del agua.
Olvidé asistir a la consulta del médico.

Cabe destacar que, sobre todo, depende de la intencionalidad: hay personas a las cuales les cuesta un mundo reconocer los errores propios y utilizan la voz media casi con todos los verbos posibles; mientras que alguien "serio" tendería hacia la otra forma, sobre todo, estando en un entorno acorde.

Un saludo a todos.

[3.14159]

Hi can anybody give me a little explanation, what is the difference between:

olvidé el libro (i forgot the book)

and

se me olvidó el libro (literally: it forgot me the book)

I know that it is something regarding an unintentional action, but is the first example not the same thing??

i dont get it.

Psid

As has been stated, this "se me" construction indicates lack of intentionality on the part of the speaker; the logical subject ("I") is backgrounded. In se me olvidó el libro, the grammatical subject is "el libro," while the logical subject is embodied in the meaning of "se." By contrast, in olvidé el libro, the grammatical and logical subject are one and the same, represented by the morphological ending -é of the verb olvidé (and "el libro" assumes the role of direct object). English doesn't have a "se" counterpart, but the idea of "hiding" the true/logical subject is the same when using the passive voice. The difference between I made mistakes and mistakes were made by me is that the second version dilutes my role by making "mistakes" the grammatical subject (it agrees with the plural verb "were"). That's the semantic implication of all these "se me" constructions (se me olvidó el libro, se me cayó la radio, se me rompió el celular, etc.)