The best movie I have ever seen

[poli]

I think you say La major película que jamás he visto.
Is that correct?

I don't think it makes sense to say La major película que nunca he visto.
Is that correct?

[Julvenzor]

Only the first one is correct for that meaning, even with subjunctive:

La mejor película que jamás haya visto.

With "nunca" it means, in fact, you haven't watched that movie until the date.

A pleasure.

[Jellybaby]

¿Se puede decir "La mejor pelicula que he visto jamás." ?

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

@Jelly: yes, but with the subjunctive, as Julvenzor wrote it. :)



...or, more commonly heard in Spanish, "la mejor película que he visto en mi vida". ;)

[Premium]

"Jamás" triggers the subjuntive?

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

:thinking: Creo que sí. El "jamás" hace que la oración contenga una componente inalcanzable.

Si dijera: "es la mejor película que he visto", el horizonte temporal queda definido implícitamente, y el subjuntivo no es necesario.

[aleCcowaN]

If we look at it in a mechanical way, the "terminos de polaridad negativa" like jamás, nunca and en mi vida, call for subjunctive. The fact is that both sentences have different meanings, a nuance, in the eyes of English speakers -and most other languages- and a strikingly different meaning, for a native speaker:

"la mejor película que he visto" (it's a rational approach; the speaker is supposed to have come to that conclusion through some process of analysis)
"la mejor película que jamás haya visto" (it's an emotional/perceptive approach; the speaker feels that way now: give him or her a couple of days to think about it and that opinion may change).

"La mejor película que jamás he visto" is correct, very unusual as it's pretty absolutist.

[Premium]

Gracias :D

[poli]

Thanks everyone. I heard :la mejor película que jamás he visto (or at least that's the way I heard it). It's good to know that sometimes there's a difference between the words jamás and nunca.

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

"...que nunca haya visto" is also valid, but "jamás" has a certain charming dramatic tone. ;)

Even though this might be regional usage, the adverb without the subjunctive doesn't sound right to me. ;(

[Julvenzor]

Con subjuntivo me suena mejor, dicho sea de paso. Pero bien es cierto que en la mayoría de España (por ejemplo) se prefiere sin. Así pues, atestiguo que hay un marcado carácter regional.

Un saludo a todos.

[poli]

Bueno, fue en la nueva película sobre la vida de Cantínflas que oí este uso de jamás, y fue el actor que desempeñó el papel de Cantíflas que lo dijo. Sé que él era famoso por torcer el idioma, y quería averiguarlo con vds si es un uso común (aunque lo oí usado antes. Ahora mismo no recuerdo si usó el subjuntivo haya. Me parece que no, pero tendré que verlo otra vez para a saber ciertamente.

[aleCcowaN]

I don't think there're regional differences here, only some features of the language that can reach the popular levels or be crushed onto the ceiling of educated parlance. There are regional styles, so some uses are absorbed by others and remain masked, specially when we native speakers have to "reverse-engineer" our own mental processes to explain what we do and why we do it, but it's all there.

This business of subjunctive is a tricky one, and talking of words "triggering" subjunctive or regional uses is pretty misleading.

Here an example of what shouldn't be done:

a lo mejor = quizá/s (DRAE) ---> synonyms
quizá ---> subjunctive 2/3 of the times, indicative 1/3 of the times, generally expressing the certainty in the speaker, also regional differences.
a lo mejor ---> always indicative (some natives use it wrong, regional differences)

Here the same topic amended to match the real language:

a lo mejor doesn't mean quizá/s, at least exactly
quizá ---> uses subjunctive, as "quizá" always introduces an speculation, and not a certain fact. As many uses of subjunctive (like "una persona que hable español" and "una persona que habla español"), it admits the use of indicative as an obvious modification of the basic paradigm in order to convey something, what? certainty, in this case.
a lo mejor ---> always indicative, because it's a focal expression: it focuses in one of many possible outcomes "a lo mejor viene" (viene, no viene are the outcomes, but viene is the outcome we like or fear the most), in this case, the turn of subjunctive into indicative communicates the focus. Remember: when a native is criticized for buying a lottery ticket, s/he always replies "pero a lo mejor me toca" (and never "me toque")

Regional uses: "a la mejor" is a variation of "a lo mejor" extended everywhere, the only regional difference may be considering it too much popular instead of just popular.

"A lo mejor" is used meaning "quizá/s", hence subjunctive in about 2/3 of the cases, by about 10% of the native speakers in North-western Argentina, Western Bolivia, Northern Chile and Eastern Peru.

[poli]

A mi a lo mejor significa probablamente y quizás significa tal vez. ¿ Estoy en lo cierto?

[aleCcowaN]

If you're going to reduce "a lo mejor" to a dictionary entry, it means "quizá/s", as DRAE shows.

The problem is the whole system to show the speaker's position in relation to the speech, being the mood choice one of its outstanding features, which always seems to fall within the blind spot of the English speakers' retina, so to speak.

Looking for a precise definition of a word or phrase is the way English works, not Spanish. I don't lose hope the time comes when each Spanish student "se le prenda la lamparita" about this and accepts the different logic that is built-in in Spanish, which includes subjunctive as the visible iceberg's tip .

[poli]

I refer to the song Quizás, and in that song, the title word resembles tal vez, puede ser than a lo major. I understand that language is all about nuance-- even English.

[aleCcowaN]

Do you mean the song that goes "perhaps ... perhaps ... perhaps"?

I don't know the structure "it resembles A than B" so I can't comment.

And I was saying that subjunctive is not a matter of nuances at all. Meaning absolutely not. English speakers mistake it relating it to nuances.

[aleCcowaN]

A mi a lo mejor significa probablamente y quizás significa tal vez. ¿ Estoy en lo cierto?

Now I understand what you're saying! Somewhat you may be thinking that by using "a lo mejor" the speaker is considering that to be more probable. If that's the case, it's rather the opposite of that process: focus doesn't mean the speaker is tweaking up probabilities but attaching him or herself more to one of the possible outcomes regardless its probability. An example

A- Compré un billete de lotería.
B- Siempre pierdes tu dinero.
A- Pero tiene un premio importante
B- Y es poco probable que te lo ganes.
A- Lo más probable es que pierda el dinero, pero a lo mejor me toca a mí. (the speaker decides to focus in the 1/44,000th probability of the number he chose to be drawn and not on the 43,999/44,000th probability of failing, hence that "a lo mejor" meaning "quizá/s" and not a different thing triggers indicative -the Spanish mood for things that do happen- instead of subjunctive -the Spanish mood for things that doesn't happen-)