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- - Pronouncing all "Rs" as "Ds" - Page 2 (https://forums.tomisimo.org/showthread.php?t=9378)

Pronouncing all "Rs" as "Ds" - Page 2

Quote:

Originally Posted by irmamar (Post 98700)

Watch this video. They write "d", but it sounds "r" ears:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdOgNXwCUYE

Nope, still sounds like a 'd' to me, no matter how softened it is.

One interesting comment on that video is

Quote:

Hi Lisa. As a native speaker of Spanish I can't help hearing an 'r' instead of the 'd' sound you mention for the "t". I don't hear 'bedder' but 'ber(e)r'. It's not a strong 'r' like in 'Ratón' but the weak 'r' like in the word 'Barco'. I still find it impossible to say the word 'water', I know I'm close but I can't manage to make it better.

I find this really weird. :thinking::thinking:

I didn't read the comments, but that person understands the same "r" as I do. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by irmamar (Post 98707)

I didn't read the comments, but that person understands the same "r" as I do. :)

Perhaps we could discuss this..... :)

Perhaps... :hmm:

Of course! :D

But do you remember that once (a few days ago) I told you the same with 'better'? ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by irmamar (Post 98710)

But do you remember that once (a few days ago) I told you the same with 'better'? ;)

These days, I need telling many times before it sinks in. :rolleyes:

Well, then tell 'sidra' several times. :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by irmamar (Post 98717)

Well, then tell 'sidra' several times. :D

Only if you practice 'submerged country' :p :rose: - and 'static Steven Spielberg' :rolleyes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perikles (Post 98722)

Only if you practice 'submerged country' :p :rose: - and 'static Steven Spielberg' :rolleyes:

:rolleyes: No sé, no sé. :thinking: :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by chileno (Post 98676)

No, not that one.

Algo que les digo a mis estudiantes para que comienzen a practicar es que la

TH = como la Z (española) o la D

D= D o R

No se como pronuncias las palabras dedo o dado en castellano, pero yo las pronuncio así:

La primera d con la lengua justo detrás de los dientes y la segunda con la lengua entre los dientes.

TH cuando suena como D es con la lengua entre los dientes

D cuando suena como R pronunciada rápida es con la lengua detrás de los dientes.

:)

Ok PJT, you name them, 'cause I forgot all that, long time ago. :)

Yo hago trampas y uso Wikipedia ;)

TH is supposedly a dental fricative, but I think I have a F-TH merger. Lo que es cierto es que una amiga española me dice que pronuncio la zeta en español como F y debo pronunciarla como TH inglés, y yo creo que sí que la pronuncio como pronuncio la TH inglés.

D is a voiced dental or alveolar plosive.

A lot of English people silence many Rs - if you want to search then the key term is rhotic vs non-rhotic. But a Spanish R is a sound which doesn't exist in English: an alveolar flap. I can see that a very quick D could mutate into a Spanish R, but the sounds in the video don't seem to me to do that. I hear a distinct D.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty (Post 98684)

Boy, did I open a can of worms, or what?

I specifically chose words and narrative that would make sense to a native American English speaker. No offense meant, but others will have a difficult time understanding why I said what I said.
Adore is pronounced with a hard 'd', as Awaken wrote. I never meant to say that we pronounce American English intervocal 'd' consonants like the Spanish 'r'. I was only agreeing that when a new student of Spanish is first trying to pronounce the Spanish word 'todo', many sound like they are saying 'tou rou', as chileno pointed out. He also correctly points out that we will say 'tou dou' if we enunciate the consonant clearly. For example, the English 'to-do' is always pronounced with a hard 'd'.

Sorry about any confusion I might have caused. I was only trying to help wafflestomp. If he can say 'better cheddar' over and over until he hears the same middle consonant in each word, then drop the final r's and say 'bette chedda' over and over (the final vowel sounds are identical in sound), and then drop the leading consonant sounds and say 'ette edda' over and over, he'll be saying 'era era' in Spanish.

You are more than OK. The problems is that in helping a Spanish learner you give instructions aimed to that crowd, but there are English learner who get stuck with those instructions.

And then we have those darned British... :rolleyes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjt33 (Post 98729)

eeerrr PJT!

Quizás ella te escucha decir una f, uno nunca sabe lo que la otra persona escucha si no pregunta.

Alguna vez no les ha pasado que uno va con un amigo a alguna parte, se entra a algun local y pregunta por algun artículo etc, y la respuesta no se entiende para nada. Uno pregunta ¿Qué? Y lo mismo pasa. No se entiende ni papa lo que la persona que atiende dice. Uno mira al amigo y le preguntamos ¿Qué dijo? y tu amigo dice "Dijo tal y tal cosa. ¿No le entiendes? ¡Pero si habla clarito!"

Para ese entonces, ya crees que necesitas irte a casa y acostarte. :banghead: :)

Creo que a todo el mundo le ha pasado más de una vez...:D

Quote:

Originally Posted by chileno (Post 98741)

Alguna vez no les ha pasado que uno va con un amigo a alguna parte, se entra a algun local y pregunta por algun artículo etc, y la respuesta no se entiende para nada. Uno pregunta ¿Qué? Y lo mismo pasa. No se entiende ni papa lo que la persona que atiende dice. Uno mira al amigo y le preguntamos ¿Qué dijo? y tu amigo dice "Dijo tal y tal cosa. ¿No le entiendes? ¡Pero si habla clarito!"

Lo que más me pasa es que estoy en un restaurante charlando con un amigo, viene el camarero, pido algo, y mi amigo tiene que repetir lo que digo. No sé, igual es que mi acento sigue un poco demasiado inglés para los que no se hayan acostumbrado.

It's strange that the British can't hear what we Americans take for granted. The 'd' in everybody is definitely a Spanish 'r', when the word is used in everyday conversation. Irmamar hears it the same way I do. There are many words that fall into this category, but I didn't want to muddy the waters.

I just found this tidbit on how to pronounce the letter 't' on Merriam-Webster:
T as in tie, attack, late, later, latter. In some contexts, as when a stressed or unstressed vowel precedes and an unstressed vowel or \&l\ follows, the sound represented by t or tt is pronounced in most American speech as a voiced flap produced by the tongue tip tapping the teethridge. In similar contexts the sound represented by d or dd has the same pronunciation. Thus, the pairs ladder and latter, leader and liter, parody and parity are often homophones.

Here, from this site, we read:
The flap is the Spanish short /r/, ie in "toro". Also occurs in Italian, Japanese, and American English in the form of the /dd/ in "ladder" or /tt/ in "butter" said rapidly.

Here's another snippet, from this site:

The alveolar flap [ɾ] is an allophone of /t/ and /d/ in unstressed syllables in North American English and increasingly in Australian English. This is the sound of "tt" or "dd" in the words latter and ladder, which are homophones in North American English. This is the same sound represented by single "r" in some varieties of Spanish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjt33 (Post 98743)

I was talking about that happening in your own language! :)

Yeah, like when they tell you "can you get the sock off your mouth"?
(Or is the other way around?)
At any rate, I think in all the languages one can hear some diction that is just so loose that you cannot get it... or the person is talking to his/her collar...

I'll study Rusty's post a bit better...(and exercise with Betty bought a bit of better butter...) and I'll be checking back...

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPablo (Post 98779)

I'll study Rusty's post a bit better...(and exercise with Betty bought a bit of better butter...) and I'll be checking back...

I shall have to as well, I'm really baffled. My present impression is that your exercise should sound like be-i bo-a bi-a be-e bu-a, with my tongue somewhere it has never been before, and with no other consonants detectable to the non-Spanish ear. :thinking:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPablo (Post 98779)

... (and exercise with Betty bought a bit of better butter...)

Excellent!!! All t's are Spanish 'r' sounds. Good job! :thumbsup:

Thanks, Rusty...

@Perikles... maybe we should approach this subject from the Spanish side for your benefit... as in the "joke" of Dad and his son (Pachín), who invented the marching music, while watching a train coming to the station, and the son Pachín repeating his question again and again:

Pachín: ¿Parará, Papá?
Papá: Parará, Pachín.
Pachín: ¿Parará, Papá?
Papá: Parará, Pachín.

¡Parará, Pachín - Parará, Pachín - Parará, Pachín! (Just add some Sousa's melodies and you got it!)

Sheesh. Now I am confused. For now, I guess I am just going to sound like an American trying to speak Spanish. But at least I will be understood when I enunciate.

For native Spanish speakers, if I pronounce an 'r' like an 'r' in English, is there any other letter that would get confused with or could you understand me?

But I do understand that "era" in Spanish is not pronounced the same was as "era" in English.

Well, you can hear how Cecilia sang "era feliz en su matrimonio" [she was happy with her marriage...] (la mira de reojo)

(Julio Iglesias also says several "Spanish "r" "como será aquel que tanto la estima"
"ser querida") (Mira a su marido y luego calla)

I hope you can understand the lyrics... but the Spanish soft "r" is very clear here.

Ok. So I just watched the Accurate English/Accurate Accent video. While she is correct in that fast speaking those 't' sounds from "city" and "water" do start to sound like d's, there is a small amount of exaggeration on her part to help the learning. To me I can tell, she is being lazy with her 't' sounds. Especially when she was saying "computer." It is common here in America, but it isn't quite that strong. It's subtle, but I can definitely see where that would help a foreign learning improve his/her accent.