Translating a simple paragraph (Exercise 15-6)

Originally Posted by laepelba (Post 97695)

Sabrina tenía pelo (1) largo, castaño castaño, largo y (2) liso lacio. Fue a la peluquería y le dijo al a su peluquero a cortar que le cortara el pelo. Pete, el peluquero, le sugirió que cambiara el color de (4) su cabello. Sabrina siempre (5) quería había querido que (6) el su pelo fuera diferente. Ella decidió que (7) quisiera quería ser una rubia. Pete buscó un color que (8) a Sabrina le gustara le gustara a Sabrina. Ella prefería un color que fuera claro. Tres horas y media después de que él cambiara el color (9) de cabello del pelo, Pete (10) empezó comenzó usar las tijeras. Cuando Pete terminó, Sabrina se miró (11) a la cara en el al espejo. ¡Y (12) ella le vio a una mujer muy diferente! Cuando Sabrina (13) volviera volvió a casa, ella entró y su esposo no (14) dijo habló mucho. Él parecía confudido. Antes de que Sabrina le pidiera su opinión, (15) le su esposo dijo: "¿(16) Y porqué por qué no un permanente también?"
[/TABLE]My Questions:
(1) I remember a thread ( http://forums.tomisimo.org/showthrea...der+adjectives ) about the order of adjectives. But is there a certain requirement for the adjectives here that they would need to be different than in the English? Or was that something that the "editors" did in error?
Seems editors error.
(2) Lacio o liso? Are they interchangeable here?
Yes, they are interchangeable, but "lacio" is the best collocation, as it is used mainly with hair.
(3) This is subjunctive because it's a request? (Just checking....)
Not totally sure myself, but seems to be a request that has not occurred yet in the physical at the time of the request.
(4) My dictionary says that "the color of the hair" is "el color de cabello". Is the "su" necessary?
Not necessarily. Maybe it is better, but not mandatory.
(5) Are they the same, "quería" and "había querido"?
Not exactly, the "quería" gives a "durative" sense to the intention. The second "había querido" seems to indicate that "not anymore" i.e., now she got it. On the first one it seems that she stills wants the change of color and has not happened yet necessarily.
(6) Uyyyy.... I don't understand the times you use the personal possessive pronoun and the times you use the definite pronoun for things like "pelo". Why is it "su" here and not "el"?
It could be that "el" gives the idea of "the hair" in general, not her specific hair.
(7) Why indicative here and not subjunctive?
Mmm, looks like it is a "fact" that she wanted it so...
(8) Does the order of these phrases matter?
Not necessarily but better to have the Direct Object and/or Indirect object at the end.
(9) Why was it "de su cabello" earlier in the paragraph, and for the same "color of her hair" it is now "del pelo"?
Not sure. They are synonyms and both correct, for my money.
(10) Are empezar and comenzar interchangeable here?
I believe pretty much everywhere these are very close synonyms.
(11) Is there a mistake in the book that they left out "a la cara"?
Mmmm... not necessarily... seems rather implied, but probably better making it explicit.
(12) Is the "le" okay there?
No, "le" doesn't belong there at all.
(13) I thought this was the kind of adjective phrase (that answers the question "when?") that would require the subjunctive. Why not?
Nothing hypothetical here, it is a fact that she came back home. No guess or wish... she came back.
(14) Why "hablar" and not "decir"?
Both fine to me. I'd say "decir" like you did.
(15) Is the "le" okay there?
Yes, but it could be ambiguous, as to who talked to whom.
(16) Why is the "y" there?
Emphasis, an idiomatic way to "introduce" the question. As in "Why not [on top of everything]..."

As always, thank you SO much for the help you always give me. I know there are more questions this time than usual, but I believe that most of them (all but two or three) should only require short little answers.... :rose:

Originally Posted by JPablo (Post 97696)

(3) This is subjunctive because it's a request? (Just checking....)
Not totally sure myself, but seems to be a request that has not occurred yet in the physical at the time of the request.
So, would the indicative be okay here, too? Which would you use?

(6) Uyyyy.... I don't understand the times you use the personal possessive pronoun and the times you use the definite pronoun for things like "pelo". Why is it "su" here and not "el"?
It could be that "el" gives the idea of "the hair" in general, not her specific hair.
But, um, I thought that the general idea was that if it's *obvious* whose hair we're talking about, then it's "el", but if there's some confusion, we'd need the possessive. It's obvious we're talking about HER hair. Is "el" okay here?

(7) Why indicative here and not subjunctive?
Mmm, looks like it is a "fact" that she wanted it so...
Even though it's the dependent clause about something that she decided....?

(8) Does the order of these phrases matter?
Not necessarily but better to have the Direct Object and/or Indirect object at the end.
Interesting, because I don't know that I've ever seen the IO of "me/te/le gusta at the end of the phrase instead of the beginning....

(12) Is the "le" okay there?
No, "le" doesn't belong there at all.
When I was taking classes in Argentina, the professors told us that often, when the IO is a person, Spanish will use both an IO pronoun AND the "a + whomever". For example, "(yo) le di a mi hermano un libro". Even though "a mi hermano" or "le" would be sufficient, both can (and often are) used. Have I misinterpreted this? If I said "vio a una mujer", why can't I also say "le vio a una mujer"?

Originally Posted by laepelba (Post 97711)

Originally Posted by JPablo http://forums.tomisimo.org/images/sm...5/viewpost.gif
(3) This is subjunctive because it's a request? (Just checking....)
Not totally sure myself, but seems to be a request that has not occurred yet in the physical at the time of the request.
So, would the indicative be okay here, too? Which would you use?
You could say it like the book,
Fue a la peluquería y le dijo a su peluquero que le cortara el pelo.
Or you could use a direct style:
Fue a la peluquería y le dijo a su peluquero: Córteme el pelo.

(6) Uyyyy.... I don't understand the times you use the personal possessive pronoun and the times you use the definite pronoun for things like "pelo". Why is it "su" here and not "el"?
It could be that "el" gives the idea of "the hair" in general, not her specific hair.
But, um, I thought that the general idea was that if it's *obvious* whose hair we're talking about, then it's "el", but if there's some confusion, we'd need the possessive. It's obvious we're talking about HER hair. Is "el" okay here?
Sabrina siempre había querido que (6) el su pelo fuera diferente.
If you say, Sabrina always wanted hair to be different, it comes across as a generality, i.e., if Sabrina is herself in the business of "hairdressing'' she'd like "hair to be different" (she'd do different things for different clients) Of if she is an Art Director for a film or... or... It is not obvious (with "el") that we talk about her hair. Thus, it seems the possessive is required here.

(7) Why indicative here and not subjunctive?
Mmm, looks like it is a "fact" that she wanted it so...
Even though it's the dependent clause about something that she decided....?
She had decided thus, indicative.
Had she wished, then we'd go with subjunctive.
decidió que quería ser rubia.
"deseaba que pudiera ser rubia" would be a subjunctive option.

(8) Does the order of these phrases matter?
Not necessarily but better to have the Direct Object and/or Indirect object at the end.
Interesting, because I don't know that I've ever seen the IO of "me/te/le gusta at the end of the phrase instead of the beginning....
Mmm... I think you may be mixing the PRONOUN (for IO, for Direct Object) and the "actual'' Indirect or Direct Object.
Pete buscó un color que (8) a Sabrina le gustara le gustara a Sabrina.
"le" (a Sabrina).
Les dieron chocolate a los chavales. Is a common construction.
A ellos les dieron chocolate. is also valid. In the case of "Sabrina" sounds better at the end...
(12) Is the "le" okay there?
No, "le" doesn't belong there at all.
When I was taking classes in Argentina, the professors told us that often, when the IO is a person, Spanish will use both an IO pronoun AND the "a + whomever". For example, "(yo) le di a mi hermano un libro". Even though "a mi hermano" or "le" would be sufficient, both can (and often are) used. Have I misinterpreted this? If I said "vio a una mujer", why can't I also say "le vio a una mujer"?
Vio a una mujer. = He saw a woman.
La vio (a ella) = He saw her.
Le dio una flor (a ella) = He gave her a flower [to her]

"Le vio a una mujer" doesn't make any sense.
"Le dio una flor a una mujer" (He gave a flower to a woman) does make sense. :rose: (There you have it!)
I hope the examples help. Otherwise, I'll be back on-line tomorrow... (but probably Irma or Alec... or some other good friend will give us a hand...)


Thanks so much, Pablo! I only have a few ongoing questions....

Originally Posted by laepelba (Post 97695)

(1) I remember a thread ( http://forums.tomisimo.org/showthrea...der+adjectives ) about the order of adjectives. But is there a certain requirement for the adjectives here that they would need to be different than in the English? Or was that something that the "editors" did in error?
(2) Lacio o liso? Are they interchangeable here?
(3) This is subjunctive because it's a request? (Just checking....)
(4) My dictionary says that "the color of the hair" is "el color de cabello". Is the "su" necessary?
(5) Are they the same, "quería" and "había querido"?

Originally Posted by laepelba (Post 97695)

(6) Uyyyy.... I don't understand the times you use the personal possessive pronoun and the times you use the definite pronoun for things like "pelo". Why is it "su" here and not "el"?
(7) Why indicative here and not subjunctive?
(8) Does the order of these phrases matter?
(9) Why was it "de su cabello" earlier in the paragraph, and for the same "color of her hair" it is now "del pelo"?
(10) Are empezar and comenzar interchangeable here?
(11) Is there a mistake in the book that they left out "a la cara"?
(12) Is the "le" okay there?
(13) I thought this was the kind of adjective phrase (that answers the question "when?") that would require the subjunctive. Why not?
(14) Why "hablar" and not "decir"?
(15) Is the "le" okay there?
(16) Why is the "y" there?

As always, thank you SO much for the help you always give me. I know there are more questions this time than usual, but I believe that most of them (all but two or three) should only require short little answers.... :rose:

Originally Posted by JPablo (Post 97717)

Originally Posted by laepelba http://forums.tomisimo.org/images/sm...5/viewpost.gif
Originally Posted by JPablo http://forums.tomisimo.org/images/sm...5/viewpost.gif

(8) Does the order of these phrases matter?
Not necessarily but better to have the Direct Object and/or Indirect object at the end.
Interesting, because I don't know that I've ever seen the IO of "me/te/le gusta at the end of the phrase instead of the beginning....
Mmm... I think you may be mixing the PRONOUN (for IO, for Direct Object) and the "actual'' Indirect or Direct Object.
Pete buscó un color que (8) a Sabrina le gustara le gustara a Sabrina.
"le" (a Sabrina).
Les dieron chocolate a los chavales. Is a common construction.
A ellos les dieron chocolate. is also valid. In the case of "Sabrina" sounds better at the end...
I meant only with "me/te/le gusta(n)" ... I've always seen that if an object is stated, it comes before the rest of the phrase like this: "a mi me gusta chocolates" or "a ti te gusta fútbal" or "a mi hermano le gusta jugar ajedrez", etc....

(12) Is the "le" okay there?
No, "le" doesn't belong there at all.
When I was taking classes in Argentina, the professors told us that often, when the IO is a person, Spanish will use both an IO pronoun AND the "a + whomever". For example, "(yo) le di a mi hermano un libro". Even though "a mi hermano" or "le" would be sufficient, both can (and often are) used. Have I misinterpreted this? If I said "vio a una mujer", why can't I also say "le vio a una mujer"?
Vio a una mujer. = He saw a woman.
La vio (a ella) = He saw her.
Le dio una flor (a ella) = He gave her a flower [to her]

"Le vio a una mujer" doesn't make any sense.
"Le dio una flor a una mujer" (He gave a flower to a woman) does make sense. :rose: (There you have it!)
I hope the examples help. Otherwise, I'll be back on-line tomorrow... (but probably Irma or Alec... or some other good friend will give us a hand...)
Would it also be okay to say "la vio a una mujer"?
I am constantly confusing IO's and DO's. I need to do an intensive study of them. I have an upcoming chapter and probably a whole other workbook about them ... but I have to finish up this initial study of the subjunctive first....

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN (Post 97741)

6) Same as 4). Besides "que el pelo fuera diferente" may also mean something like "hair (in general) not being what it is or not having the properties it has", while "que su pelo fuera diferente" is clearly her hair having a different style, or at most being another possible kind of hair.
I'm not quite there yet ... there is another thread about this, but I can't find it at the moment.... I'll try to refresh. We use the possessive pronouns so much more in English, it's difficult for me to distinguish when to and when not to in Spanish........

8) both orders are OK. The order suggested is easier to process.
Is this one of those things where sentences in Spanish often place the most important words (the ones the speaker wants stressed) at the end?

10) Yep. Commence looks here nicer than start.
Interesting. We very rarely use "commence" in English, except in very formal situations...

11) "Mirarse al espejo" is looking the whole of oneself. No need to be specific when you know what she was looking. "Se miró la cara en el espejo" is specific.
It just irritates me that they put whole phrases in the English that they don't then even allude to in the Spanish.

Originally Posted by laepelba (Post 97749)