Translating a simple paragraph (Exercise 13-18)

[laepelba]

I am continuing to work through a book of basic Spanish grammar exercises, in an attempt to fill in some of the "holes" in the learning that I've done so far. It has been (I believe) very fruitful so far.

This exercise is from the first of several chapters on the subjunctive and asks me to translate a simple paragraph from English to Spanish. In fact, I don't have any questions about the use of the subjunctive here, but have some questions about other things within the paragraph.

I want to ask a couple of questions, though. So I'm going to include here (1) the original English paragraph, (2) my original translation, and (3) the "corrected" translation. I will indicate my questions at the bottom of this post.




Before I get to my questions, I'd like to say that I didn't like this exercise to begin with. Yes, it gave me experience choosing when to use the subjunctive vs. when not to do so. But the English paragraph was very poorly written. And I have my doubts about their choices for the Spanish as well..... Do you agree with me?

My Questions:
1) I wrote the word order in the same way that the English was written. But for some reason, the Spanish phrase "Bob llega tarde a la oficina de vez en cuando" doesn't feel right to me. Would it be better as "de vez en cuando Bob llega tarde a la oficina"?
2) I don't necessarily see why it's "que" and not "a". Isn't this entire sentence also a bit awkward anyway?
3) Are "particulares" and "personales" interchangeable here?
4) I like my "tenga mucha paciencia" better than "sea muy paciente". The latter feels like a direct word-for-word exchange from the English. Am I right here?
5) Are "probable" and "posible" interchangeable here?
6) Are "particulares" and "personales" interchangeable here?
7) Again, "muy" feels more English than does "bien". Are they interchangeable here, or is one or the other better?
8) Another that I translated exactly, word for word, but I don't like it. Is the Spanish really SO equivalent to the English here as to say "recibir una sorpresa"?

Thanks so much for any suggestions that you have for me!!

[Perikles]

I won't muddy the water with specific comment, because you need more reliable responses, but interestingly I think the English is not badly written (and actually contains two real English subjunctives). The amount of red correction is misleading, because there are often equally valid choices, and to me, often yours seem as good as the book's choice. Especially the Ojalá, which would really annoy me.

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by Perikles

I won't muddy the water with specific comment, because you need more reliable responses, but interestingly I think the English is not badly written (and actually contains two real English subjunctives). The amount of red correction is misleading, because there are often equally valid choices, and to me, often yours seem as good as the book's choice. Especially the Ojalá, which would really annoy me.

Thanks, Perikles - that's encouraging! And, yes, the ojalá stuff did annoy me, too....

So, the English. Here are some of my issues:
- "It is better that the new boss understand..." - maybe that goes back to what we discussed yesterday about better and best. They are basically leading the student here into writing "más vale que"...
- "He wishes the new manager will understand..." - simply awkward wording...
- "He wishes the new manager to be..." - again, awkward...

And, I suppose, the biggest irritation of all is that Bob is a jerk! He is the kind of employee who makes life more difficult for the rest of us....

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by laepelba

And, I suppose, the biggest irritation of all is that Bob is a jerk!

Yes, I suppose the English isn't all that brilliant, but here I detect an emotional response to a little piece of translation.

Just a comment about your first query involving word order. Spanish word order in a sentence is more flexible than in English, but to me it sounds wrong if the verb is not the second or the first idea. So that

de vez en cuando Bob (verb) is wrong, but
de vez en cuando (verb) Bob and
Bob (verb) .... de vez en cuando sound better.

Please somebody correct that if wrong.

[laepelba]

I guess I was thinking that it would be "de vez en cuando" before the verb to stress that's how often it happens, and to keep "tarde" closer to the end of the sentence because it's a more important phrase.... Hmmm...

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

Originally Posted by laepelba

Hoy el Telemast Company anuncia La empresa Telemast anuncia hoy la llegada de su nuevo gerente general. Bob espera que el nuevo gerente sea un hombre amable simpático y flexible. Más vale que el nuevo jefe entienda que (1) Bob llega tarde a la oficina de vez en cuando. Bob quiere desea crear una buena primera impresión, y hoy llega a tiempo. Desea que Ojalá el nuevo gerente entienda que los empleados necesitan más tiempo para almorzar. Es importante que permita (2) a que sus empleados hacer hagan llamadas (3) particulares de personales desde la oficina. Desea que Ojalá el nuevo gerente jefe (4) tenga mucha paciencia sea muy paciente y no sea demasiado muy exigente. Sin embargo es muy (5) posible probable que Bob (8) reciba una gran sorpresa. (6) El individuo La persona que ahora ocupar la posición el cargo de gerente general justo ha llegado acaba de llegar a Telemast. Ella Es Sra. Almagro. Ella Es (7) bien muy conocida de entre sus amigos como "la "Dama de hierro".

1) I wrote the word order in the same way that the English was written. But for some reason, the Spanish phrase "Bob llega tarde a la oficina de vez en cuando" doesn't feel right to me. Would it be better as "de vez en cuando Bob llega tarde a la oficina"?
- Not necessarily. Spanish language is flexible.
In this case, the standard construction of the sentence, with the subject at the start and the adverb (modifying a verb) as close to the verb as possible, tends to sound better.
- Bob llega tarde de vez en cuando.
- De vez en cuando Bob llega tarde.
- Bob, de vez en cuando, llega tarde.
- De vez en cuando llega tarde Bob. / De vez en cuando llega Bob tarde. :wrong:
(It would be understood, but it feels awkward)

2) I don't necessarily see why it's "que" and not "a". Isn't this entire sentence also a bit awkward anyway?
- No, it isn't.
"Que permita a sus empleados hacer llamadas" = "que permita que sus empleados hagan llamadas", but you're studying the subjunctive, so it was obvious that the sentence had to use it.

3) Are "particulares" and "personales" interchangeable here?
- They aren't if you ask me. "Particulares" would be understood here as "peculiar".
"Privadas" could have been a synonym.

4) I like my "tenga mucha paciencia" better than "sea muy paciente". The latter feels like a direct word-for-word exchange from the English. Am I right here?
- Not necessarily. Both sentences are interchangeable, but maybe "que sea muy paciente" is more formal for writing.

5) Are "probable" and "posible" interchangeable here?
- Just as much as they are in English.

6) Are "particulares" and "personales" interchangeable here?
- ????
I suppose you just cut and pasted the question here, but "individuo" is disrespectful for a person. The book should have told.

7) Again, "muy" feels more English than does "bien". Are they interchangeable here, or is one or the other better?
- "Bien" is rather colloquial for this kind of expression. "Muy conocida" is the standard expression for a person.

8) Another that I translated exactly, word for word, but I don't like it. Is the Spanish really SO equivalent to the English here as to say "recibir una sorpresa"?
- "Recibir una sorpresa" is the standard expression. (Use your dictionary in Spanish.)

One more note: You must always say "la Sra. XXX"/"el Sr. XXX"/"la Srita. XXX"



@Perikles: You're right to feel "ojalá" a bit weird here.
"Ojalá" is certainly more common (in Mexican Spanish) than "desea que" ("desear", when it substitutes "querer", sounds much more formal and even ceremonious), but in writing, we prefer it to express the wish of a first person, not a third one.
· Bob piensa: "Ojalá que el nuevo gerente sea amable".
· Bob quiere/querría/preferiría/desea que el nuevo gerente tenga paciencia.

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

1) I wrote the word order in the same way that the English was written. But for some reason, the Spanish phrase "Bob llega tarde a la oficina de vez en cuando" doesn't feel right to me. Would it be better as "de vez en cuando Bob llega tarde a la oficina"?
- Not necessarily. Spanish language is flexible.
In this case, the standard construction of the sentence, with the subject at the start and the adverb (modifying a verb) as close to the verb as possible, tends to sound better.
- Bob llega tarde de vez en cuando.
- De vez en cuando Bob llega tarde.
- Bob, de vez en cuando, llega tarde.
- De vez en cuando llega tarde Bob. / De vez en cuando llega Bob tarde. :wrong:
(It would be understood, but it feels awkward)
<-- It was the inclusion of "a la oficina" that made me feel like "de vez en cuando" was too far from the verb.... These all make sense...

2) I don't necessarily see why it's "que" and not "a". Isn't this entire sentence also a bit awkward anyway?
- No, it isn't.
"Que permita a sus empleados hacer llamadas" = "que permita que sus empleados hagan llamadas", but you're studying the subjunctive, so it was obvious that the sentence had to use it.
<-- Right, but I had already used the subjunctive once and have never been asked to make a construction with a subjunctive within a subjunctive, so I didn't quite know the protocol. I used "a" because it was persons as an object...

3) Are "particulares" and "personales" interchangeable here?
- They aren't if you ask me. "Particulares" would be understood here as "peculiar".
"Privadas" could have been a synonym.
<-- My dictionary said that "personal phone call" is "llamada particular".

6) Are "particulares" and "personales" interchangeable here?
- ????
I suppose you just cut and pasted the question here, but "individuo" is disrespectful for a person. The book should have told.
<-- Yeah, um, not sure why my eye jumped to the other thing and my brain didn't catch it. I typed these out without any cutting/pasting. Weird. Anyway, no, the book never said anything about individual (persona) individua. Now I know!

8) Another that I translated exactly, word for word, but I don't like it. Is the Spanish really SO equivalent to the English here as to say "recibir una sorpresa"?
- "Recibir una sorpresa" is the standard expression. (Use your dictionary in Spanish.)
<-- I swear, I DID use my dictionary in Spanish. It doesn't have "recibir" with "sorpresa". That's why I translated it directly, even though I wasn't sure I should...

One more note: You must always say "la Sra. XXX"/"el Sr. XXX"/"la Srita. XXX"
<-- I know, that's why I didn't ask about it. Just an oversight....

As always, thank you SO much, Malila!!

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

Originally Posted by laepelba

<-- It was the inclusion of "a la oficina" that made me feel like "de vez en cuando" was too far from the verb.... These all make sense...

In that case, I think the general principle is that adverbs should be as close to their modifying word as possible.

Originally Posted by laepelba

3) Are "particulares" and "personales" interchangeable here?
- They aren't if you ask me. "Particulares" would be understood here as "peculiar".
"Privadas" could have been a synonym.
<-- My dictionary said that "personal phone call" is "llamada particular".

I wouldn't use it that way. I have regularly seen "particular" as opposed to "público", not to "oficial". But maybe some speakers will find it natural. To my big surprise, people around me have just said they find "llamadas particulares" perfectly normal.

Originally Posted by laepelba

<-- I swear, I DID use my dictionary in Spanish. It doesn't have "recibir" with "sorpresa". That's why I translated it directly, even though I wasn't sure I should...

From the DRAE: Dicho de una persona: Tomar lo que le dan o le envían.

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

I wouldn't use it that way. I have regularly seen "particular" as opposed to "público", not to "oficial". But maybe some speakers will find it natural. To my big surprise, people around me have just said they find "llamadas particulares" perfectly normal.

Well, then it sounds like using "llamadas personales" would be more universal, but if I hear "llamadas particulares" I should understand what it means as well....

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

From the DRAE: Dicho de una persona: Tomar lo que le dan o le envían.

I saw that definition, but would never have assumed it applies to "sorpresa", especially when it's not an object. I will take your word for it!

[chileno]

Originally Posted by laepelba

Today the Telemast Company announces the arrival of its new general manager. Bob hopes the new manager is a nice and flexible man. It is better that the new boss understand that Bob arrives late at the office once in a while. Bob wants to create a good first impression, and today he arrives on time. He wishes the new manager will understand that employees need more time for lunch. It is important that he allow his employees to make personal calls from the office. He wishes the new manager to be very patient and not too demanding. However it is very probable that Bob will receive a big surprise. The individual who now occupies the position of general manager has just arrived at Telemast. She is Mrs. Almagro. She is well known among her friends as "The Iron Lady."

Hoy la compañía Telemast anuncia la llegada de su nuevo gerente general. Bob espera que el nuevo gerente será un hombre simpático y flexible. Será mejor que el nuevo jefe entienda que Bob llega tarde a la oficina de vez en cuando. Bob desea dar una buena primera impresión y hoy llega a tiempo. Espera que el nuevo gerente entenderá que los empleados necesitan más tiempo para la hora de almuerzo. Es importante que permita a sus empleados hacer llamadas personales desde la oficina. Desea que el nuevo gerente sea muy paciente y no muy exigente. Pero es muy probable que Bob no esté muy sorprendido. El individuo quien ahora ocupa el puesto de gerente ha recién llegado a Telemast. Ella es la Sra Almagro. Ella es conocida entre sus amigos como la "Señora de Hierro".

Chilean way. (corroborated by friends visiting from Chile)

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

Originally Posted by laepelba

I saw that definition, but would never have assumed it applies to "sorpresa", especially when it's not an object. I will take your word for it!

Funny, I don't see the word "object" anywhere in the definition.


I'd just like to make a little remark on the nickname ("Señora de Hierro") that Hernán has suggested: Since this seems to be a nickname inspired by the one given to Margaret Thatcher, the standard translation I've always seen is "La Dama de Hierro", so I think the book is more accurate there.

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

Funny, I don't see the word "object" anywhere in the definition.

I guess I don't see why it's so unreasonable that I thought it might be a colloquialism in English....

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

I'd just like to make a little remark on the nickname ("Señora de Hierro") that Hernán has suggested: Since this seems to be a nickname inspired by the one given to Margaret Thatcher, the standard translation I've always seen is "La Dama de Hierro", so I think the book is more accurate there.

As in many other of these translation exercises, there was a word bank given with the exercise. "La Dama de hierro" (lower case "h") was one of the terms given to me.

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

I'd accept a discrepancy on the upper case of "la", but I'd keep "Hierro", with a capital letter, since the nickname is not only "Dama".
I think I've mentioned before, they seem to be keeping capitalization in an (ugly) French fashion. ;(

[laepelba]

Yeah - I wasn't comfortable with it, but stuck with what they had. I'm with you on caps for proper nouns ... and we've talked about things like the name of the business, which I kept as Telemast Company instead of changing the "Company" to a lower case "empresa"...

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

In the case of the company, it is different: the name of the firm is "Telemast", so when you talk about it, it's "la empresa Telemast". Some people might say "...la Telemast Company...", but people who don't speak English can find it presumptuous.
The reason why we write "Sra./Sr./Srita." with an upper case, is because they're abbreviations. Otherwise, we'd say "la señora/señorita López"/"el señor López".

[laepelba]

We've sort of talked about this now and then with other proper nouns. I understand your reasoning and explanation here. I wish that they had not capitalized "company" then. If the name of the company is "Telemast", then "company" should not be capitalized in the English version. In English, whatever parts of the name of a business are capitalized are part of the proper name of the company. "Central Park" is not a name of a park (lower case) called "Central". It is the name of a park called "Central Park". Does that thinking make sense?