Rusty and total immersion

[tacuba]

Many times on this forum Rusty has stated that in his opinion "total immersion" is the best way to acquire a foreign language. Well, here's some research that backs up his opinion 100%.

Here is an excerpt: (Jan 2009, University of Wellington)

"The teaching of languages could be revolutionised following ground-breaking research by Victoria University PhD graduate Paul Sulzberger. Dr Sulzberger has found that the best way to learn a language is through frequent exposure to its sound patterns—even if you haven't a clue what it all means.
"However crazy it might sound, just listening to the language, even though you don’t understand it, is critical. A lot of language teachers may not accept that," he says."

Here's the full article:
http://www.victoria.ac.nz/home/about...8&newslabel=hn

[bobjenkins]

Gracias me inspiraste a mirar más programas en español aún si yo no las comprendo buena información

Espero que las otras personas aquí lo leen

[CrOtALiTo]

Originally Posted by tacuba

Many times on this forum Rusty has stated that in his opinion "total immersion" is the best way to acquire a foreign language. Well, here's some research that backs up his opinion 100%.

Here is an excerpt: (Jan 2009, University of Wellington)

"The teaching of languages could be revolutionised following ground-breaking research by Victoria University PhD graduate Paul Sulzberger. Dr Sulzberger has found that the best way to learn a language is through frequent exposure to its sound patterns—even if you haven't a clue what it all means.
"However crazy it might sound, just listening to the language, even though you don’t understand it, is critical. A lot of language teachers may not accept that," he says."

Here's the full article:
http://www.victoria.ac.nz/home/about...8&newslabel=hn

I have one thought about your text, you have gotten that text of one search that you made in the website, I believe that the text is mostly related with the endeavor of each person in as they can learn the language in this new age, then I found one great motive to continue with learning of language because if they creators of the books and text as the that you have written in this post they could to learn and write to words en severals languages and even though you learn five or one language you are following the steps of the people to wants to be ready with knowledge actually.

I hope you can catch my thinking about it.

[Rusty]

Thanks for the support, Tacuba.

[Tomisimo]

For the record, I agree that total immersion is a great way to learn language.

[tacuba]

Originally Posted by Rusty

Thanks for the support, Tacuba.

You're most welcome.

What I find fascinating about the article is that for a long time there have been proponents of "exposure based" language learning. Linguists such as Stephen Krashen have long argued that languages are not "learned" but rather "acquired" as a result of massive aural exposure to the target language, in much the same way as all children learn their native languages. However, Krashen argued that the optimal learning environment is one where the person learning is in a conducive atmosphere (low stress) and also is receiving comprehensible input. In fact, Krashen argues that acquisition takes place in a "comprehensible input + 1" situation, where 1 is material that is just beyond the student's level of understanding. Sulzberger is taking the input hypothesis to the extreme saying that the input doesn't even have to be comprehensible. However the article doesn't state whether comprehensible input is better that incomprehensible, but it seems as if Sulzberger is saying that just listening is enough, and that after that the innate functions of the brain take over and the connections are formed naturally.

This coincides with a story I read last year on another language forum regarding a person who wanted to learn Spanish and did nothing but watch telenovelas for several hours a day, five days a week. If I remember correctly, all the person used as a study aid was a dictionary. Aside from that, no grammar, no teacher, no language program...nothing...just the telenovelas. If the anecdote can be believed, the person tested at high intermediate in conversation and listening skills after six months.

[chileno]

Originally Posted by tacuba

You're most welcome.

What I find fascinating about the article is that for a long time there have been proponents of "exposure based" language learning. Linguists such as Stephen Krashen have long argued that languages are not "learned" but rather "acquired" as a result of massive aural exposure to the target language, in much the same way as all children learn their native languages. However, Krashen argued that the optimal learning environment is one where the person learning is in a conducive atmosphere (low stress) and also is receiving comprehensible input. In fact, Krashen argues that acquisition takes place in a "comprehensible input + 1" situation, where 1 is material that is just beyond the student's level of understanding. Sulzberger is taking the input hypothesis to the extreme saying that the input doesn't even have to be comprehensible. However the article doesn't state whether comprehensible input is better that incomprehensible, but it seems as if Sulzberger is saying that just listening is enough, and that after that the innate functions of the brain take over and the connections are formed naturally.

This coincides with a story I read last year on another language forum regarding a person who wanted to learn Spanish and did nothing but watch telenovelas for several hours a day, five days a week. If I remember correctly, all the person used as a study aid was a dictionary. Aside from that, no grammar, no teacher, no language program...nothing...just the telenovelas. If the anecdote can be believed, the person tested at high intermediate in conversation and listening skills after six months.

Have you read some of my "studying" proposals?

[irmamar]

Here we say "inmersión lingüística", and I agree with you that it is the best way for learning a language.

And what you say, Tacuba, about watching TV (or similar) I find very interesting. Anyway, maybe we have to bear in mind that not all the words of different languages are spelled in the same way. For instance, you can hear a Spanish sentence and you could have doubts about if it's spelled with j o g, with h or not. But if I hear an English sentence I will have more doubts than you, because what you spell as an "a", I can listen to it as /ei/, /a/ or /o/ (more or less). Or, another example, "r" is very clear in Spanish, but in English sometimes it's not pronounced and it sounds like a long vowel. Because of that, if I don't see the words written, I won't understand what they say (so I won't be able to look them up in a dictionary). So I think that reading is almost so necessary than listening to. Anyway, I agree with you.

[irmamar]

Originally Posted by chileno

Have you read some of my "studying" proposals?

El método "Chileno" nunca falla

Pero es un buen método, Chileno, estoy de acuerdo contigo

Tienes que patentarlo

[chileno]

Originally Posted by irmamar

El método "Chileno" nunca falla

Pero es un buen método, Chileno, estoy de acuerdo contigo

Tienes que patentarlo

jajaja

Pero así es que "adquirí" el inglés. Es un conjunto de cosas, no solamente escuchar y/o leer.

Yo la hice en un año. Y por lejos no soy el más inteligente o con más estudios..

[laughingwithfee]

My mother spoke almost no Spanish when she went on an exchange trip to Ecuador. Her family spoke no English, so she was forced to learn Spanish. She came out of the trip speaking fluent Spanish. My cousin had the same experience last year.

[bobjenkins]

Originally Posted by laughingwithfee

My mother spoke almost no Spanish when she went on an exchange trip to Ecuador. Her family spoke no English, so she was forced to learn Spanish. She came out of the trip speaking fluent Spanish. My cousin had the same experience last year.

Wow, ¿cuántos meses fueron en Ecuador?
Después de leerlo estoy entusiasmado porque iré a España para un año para aprender español

Gracias
Bob

[irmamar]

Originally Posted by bobjenkins

Wow, ¿cuántos meses fueron en Ecuador?
Después de leerlo estoy entusiasmado porque iré a España para un año para aprender español

Gracias
Bob

Si vas a estar un año aquí, vas a aprender muchísimo. Sé de gente que ha estado tres meses en Inglaterra y ha vuelto sabiendo muchísmo inglés.

[laughingwithfee]

Originally Posted by bobjenkins

Wow, ¿cuántos meses fueron en Ecuador?
Después de leerlo estoy entusiasmado porque iré a España para un año para aprender español

Gracias
Bob

Mas o menos cinco meses.

[bobjenkins]

Originally Posted by irmamar

Si vas a estar un año aquí, vas a aprender muchísimo. Sé de gente que ha estado tres meses en Inglaterra y ha vuelto sabiendo muchísimo inglés.

Originally Posted by laughingwithfee

Mas o menos cinco meses.

¡Estoy tan entusiasmado!

[laughingwithfee]

Originally Posted by bobjenkins

¡Estoy tan entusiasmado!

¡buena suerte con su viaje!

[EmpanadaRica]

Hola a todos!

It' s very interesting to read all your thoughts about this topic, gracias por eso! I would like to add something brief (well.. ok maybe not extremely brief..) about my own experience(s) if I may.

I have attempted to learn Spanish one time before. I bought the books, (i.e. idiom, verbs, verb-practise). I really did want to make a good start but somehow I gave up after about 3 weeks. I wasn' t motivated to look into the book every day and make exercises. This wasa few years ago. I have been wanting to learn Spanish since (because I think it' s a beautiful language and because I love travelling to South America!).

So this time I have decided to go about it very differently, as it seems the approach I tried before did not work. So about 2 months ago (I have been studying Spanish for about 2 months) I decided to take a very different approach in that I was determined to find things that would keep me going, that would make the learning experience varied, stimulating and also ' forcing' me to keep busy, keep doing something every day to make myself get used to integrating Spanish into my life (as I think this is really the only way to learn it). You might call it 'discipline' maybe although my approach seems way too chaotic to justify that word..

I decided to connect to people (i.e. 'tandem partner and penpals') so I would feel a little social pressure in a sence (apart from it being a very good and nice way to learn it does make you want to advance as well..). My friends here don't speak Spanish so they would not be able to appreciate any difference or imrpovement. Now having had 2 months of exchange on skype with one new Spanish friend (bonus!) we can definitely notice improvements and are more aware of the things we can help eachother with

Apart from this I have been trying to ' raise the bar' in the sense that I have wanted to submerge myself in as many ways as I can, as I think this most naturally mimics the natural way in which we learn a language- not knowing things, learning them as we go along, being surrounded by them and building our understanding in the process. So I have been trying to read forums, listen to many podcasts, now slowly advancing to listening music and interviews on the radio, watching tv and reading a book/ listening to an audiobook. This in combination with brief chats (msn), adhoc exercise such as short messages to be corrected on a forum, longer emails to be corrected (snailmail) to train the use of less common words of grammar constructs, and skype sessions varing from 30 minutes to more than an hour, I think are starting to really have their effects now.

It seems a lot, but I think anyone can or could do this if you are commited enough. it does not have to be much more than half an hour in a day, listening to a podcast, making a short exercise, reading a few pages or some subjects on a forum.

I am not sure if this constitutes to ' submergence' into language but I do try to expose myself to it in as many ways as I can, and whenever I can. For example, I enjoy watching travel documentaries or documentaries in general. Instead of watching them in Dutch or English I will now watch them in Spanish instead (or I will download a Spanish version of a series I enjoy and find the subtitles online to watch it in Spanish instead). In the beginning this took a lot of energy but now, after a few weeks, I am noticing sometimes I am starting to recognize and understand certain parts without having to wind back and listen again. Obviously I don' t understand everything or literally, but I have noticed words are starting to stick, I am starting to use them and/ or recognize constructions. So I will continue doing this, because I think we learn both consciously and subconsciously (i.e. recognizing what does or does not ' sound' right).

I am quite an advocate of it in fact because I think I have learned most of my English through watching American and English tv being subtitled- even if naturally it is tought in school and used at university. I'm not claiming we should learn exclusively from tv of course, but I do believe that diversifying the way we ' take in' a language as much as possible in reading, listening, writing and speaking it, will help learning the language that much quicker. Plus it makes you more stimulated/determined to keep it up, and it' s more fun because you can more quickly notice the effect of your learning process (it is more relevant when you can out what you have learned to use).

[brute]

Hello my tasty meat pie. I agree with your method of total immersion. I attend two language cafes every week where I can practise German, French and Spanish, often with native speakers. There are plenty of websites where you can both hear and see native speakers, often with an original script and /or a translation of what you hear. I have a motorised satellite dish which gives me plenty of foreign stations to watch. Your English is perfect. This is true of most of your countrymen. You are a nation of linguists. Skype is a good idea, but I find it can be rather time-consuming. Keep up your efforts. Your Spanish will soon be perfect as well.

[EmpanadaRica]

Originally Posted by brute

Hello my tasty meat pie. I agree with your method of total immersion. I attend two language cafes every week where I can practise German, French and Spanish, often with native speakers. There are plenty of websites where you can both hear and see native speakers, often with an original script and /or a translation of what you hear. I have a motorised satellite dish which gives me plenty of foreign stations to watch. Your English is perfect. This is true of most of your countrymen. You are a nation of linguists. Skype is a good idea, but I find it can be rather time-consuming. Keep up your efforts. Your Spanish will soon be perfect as well.

¡Hola brute!

¡¡Gracias!! Alas, my English is far from perfect (thank you for saying that though ).. However it is the language that is easiest for me apart from Dutch of course.

Yes my goal is to become completely comfortable with Spanish, maybe almost similar to English, which sometimes feels like putting on a pair of comfortable old shoes (which will be a process of years rather than months I am sure, and an ongoing learning process). But I am quite determined, and I love the language! The more I learn about it, the more curious and eager I am becoming to learn even more, in fact.

As for Skype, yes it is time and energy consuming I agree with you in that respect. However I do feel it offers you an opportunity to train your brain in a way that is quite different from more 'passive' consumption such as listening to radio or watching tv. It can be exhausting, but I do think because it is so intensive, you can learn quite a lot from it.

If anyone has any additional suggestions or ideas I would certainly welcome them!

Ps I only just noticed the little 'accents' bar in the posting options, it's excellent!!! Does anyone know if there is any way this can be downloaded and integrated into hotmail for instance, because making accents on my keyboard gives me a headache sometimes..

[CrOtALiTo]

Originally Posted by EmpanadaRica

Hola a todos!

It' s very interesting to read all your thoughts about this topic, gracias por eso! I would like to add something brief (well.. ok maybe not extremely brief..) about my own experience(s) if I may.

I have attempted to learn Spanish one time before. I bought the books, (i.e. idiom, verbs, verb-practise). I really did want to make a good start but somehow I gave up after about 3 weeks. I wasn' t motivated to look into the book every day and make exercises. This wasa few years ago. I have been wanting to learn Spanish since (because I think it' s a beautiful language and because I love travelling to South America!).

So this time I have decided to go about it very differently, as it seems the approach I tried before did not work. So about 2 months ago (I have been studying Spanish for about 2 months) I decided to take a very different approach in that I was determined to find things that would keep me going, that would make the learning experience varied, stimulating and also ' forcing' me to keep busy, keep doing something every day to make myself get used to integrating Spanish into my life (as I think this is really the only way to learn it). You might call it 'discipline' maybe although my approach seems way too chaotic to justify that word..

I decided to connect to people (i.e. 'tandem partner and penpals') so I would feel a little social pressure in a sence (apart from it being a very good and nice way to learn it does make you want to advance as well..). My friends here don't speak Spanish so they would not be able to appreciate any difference or imrpovement. Now having had 2 months of exchange on skype with one new Spanish friend (bonus!) we can definitely notice improvements and are more aware of the things we can help eachother with

Apart from this I have been trying to ' raise the bar' in the sense that I have wanted to submerge myself in as many ways as I can, as I think this most naturally mimics the natural way in which we learn a language- not knowing things, learning them as we go along, being surrounded by them and building our understanding in the process. So I have been trying to read forums, listen to many podcasts, now slowly advancing to listening music and interviews on the radio, watching tv and reading a book/ listening to an audiobook. This in combination with brief chats (msn), adhoc exercise such as short messages to be corrected on a forum, longer emails to be corrected (snailmail) to train the use of less common words of grammar constructs, and skype sessions varing from 30 minutes to more than an hour, I think are starting to really have their effects now.

It seems a lot, but I think anyone can or could do this if you are commited enough. it does not have to be much more than half an hour in a day, listening to a podcast, making a short exercise, reading a few pages or some subjects on a forum.

I am not sure if this constitutes to ' submergence' into language but I do try to expose myself to it in as many ways as I can, and whenever I can. For example, I enjoy watching travel documentaries or documentaries in general. Instead of watching them in Dutch or English I will now watch them in Spanish instead (or I will download a Spanish version of a series I enjoy and find the subtitles online to watch it in Spanish instead). In the beginning this took a lot of energy but now, after a few weeks, I am noticing sometimes I am starting to recognize and understand certain parts without having to wind back and listen again. Obviously I don' t understand everything or literally, but I have noticed words are starting to stick, I am starting to use them and/ or recognize constructions. So I will continue doing this, because I think we learn both consciously and subconsciously (i.e. recognizing what does or does not ' sound' right).

I am quite an advocate of it in fact because I think I have learned most of my English through watching American and English tv being subtitled- even if naturally it is tought in school and used at university. I'm not claiming we should learn exclusively from tv of course, but I do believe that diversifying the way we ' take in' a language as much as possible in reading, listening, writing and speaking it, will help learning the language that much quicker. Plus it makes you more stimulated/determined to keep it up, and it' s more fun because you can more quickly notice the effect of your learning process (it is more relevant when you can out what you have learned to use).

Firstly your experience wasn't brief don't worry for it.

Now I understand your situation, I've had it kind to difficultly in learn the language but in my case English, already that my tongue language is Spanish. Of course the same problem in both cases, my advance for learn the language is if you've the communication with people who speak the language so well, as you can practice with them, I believe that it's most appropriate way, I don't fin other way, because I feel that is easier that way, already you can speak and learn the method that them used during a conversation, just it happened to me before and nowadays also I've problems with the learning, because I've not friend or people who can speak with me the language, therefore it tend to be more difficult each day.


Then the recommendation to learn the language if you have the possibility to speak with someone in the msn or skype where the chat hasn't cost some, then I believe that one day, you'll can be able to speak perfectly and clear the language.


In your post I could to saw that you dominate perfectly the English, I didn't see almost mistakes in your post is perfect, in fact I'm surprising with yours knowledge in English as clear as can be possible, also I'm glad that you're learning and getting better the Spanish with your friendly chats, it's turn to be good in the moment, but it doesn't sufficient.


If you've need help, I can recommending you, if you have the chance to find some place in your country where you can practice the language as soon as you can do it, because when people is motivate with someone is easier to learn whatever that when not.

I know that the find some place where you can practice can get to be hard to find most for the place where you live, but I believe that some school must to be some class about it.

Good luck with the learning, and I'll waiting can be to help for you.