Old Grammars and Modern Usefullness

[LiamQ]

Greetings to everyone.

I've registered on these fora to ask a question which I hope some kind soul might answer for me.

More or less, someone who is new to learning a foreign language very often is pointed in the direction of any number of popular, modern courses, many of them being audio based. For those of us who have studied foreign languages for many years, and who feel comfortable beginning reading and composition before going out 'into the world' to find some kind native-speaker to bore to death, there is perhaps less internal need to begin language study with the so-called 'easy' methods of audio acquisition. I, for example, enjoy reading grammars and finding what I consider to be a logical presentation of material; and, moreover, for me it is relatively worthwhile to internalise grammar before polishing speaking skills, and I am able to internalise it with normal effort.

I have found that, today, there are not many sources that are available which are as comprehensive as those published some decades ago. (As an example: the Colloquial series, and its ever diminishing vocabulary since the 1960's.) For a person such as I, this can be very frustrating, for language learning has grown more and more to cater to those who feel they cannot possibly learn a language unless it is entertainment and unless they are assured that it is easy to do such a thing, and that they can even do it in 15 minutes a day.

Because of my (strong) opinions on this matter, I have recently come to read more and more old grammars to brush up on some of my languages; and I have come to wonder whether or not they would be useful, to the modern person, to learn a language from even as a beginner.

Since I have finally given in to the beauty of Spanish, I thought that I would try to find materials to begin my methods of language learning, and I found what a feel to be a very good, basic book. It was written by Aurelio Espinosa and Clifford G. Allen, and it is called Elementary Spanish Grammar. It is very old, and dates to the first decade of the twentieth century.

Forgive me for ranting for so long, but finally, I have written enough to now ask something: what do the members of these fora think about general idea of acquiring a foreign language from a source as old as the one I mentioned? Do you think that the Spanish language has evolved over the past one hundred years to the point that such an old grammar would present constructs which are widely obsolete? Can you think of any modern Spanish books which provide a) very, very good grammatical training and presentation, and b) a vocabulary of approximately 2,000 of the highest frequency words?

If you have read this far, I thank you for devoting a bit of your time to these rather silly questions, and I hope you can help me find a solution.

[poli]

I am sure a grammar book from 1909, if well presented, can be as good as more contemparary reference books. If you are comfortable with the old book and it doesn't crumble when you turn that pages, use it. I assume that Spanish vocabulary, although very recognizable, may be somewhat outdated in older books just as it would be in old English vocabulary books.

I agree with you that studying grammar is very important for any adult learning a new language. Certainly, if you don't know the difference between a direct object and an indirect object, learning Spanish can be even more daunting than it already is. Those programs that guarantee quick learning seem gimmicky to me.

[pjt33]

There have been some important changes in Spanish grammar since 1909. The future subjunctive has been eliminated, pronoun placement has changed, accents on trivial words like "to" and "was" have changed. I wouldn't advise learning Spanish grammar from a book which predates the 70s. I'm afraid that I can't recommend one, though.

[ookami]

I agree with pjt33, but I think it's not that bad either. To know future subjuntive for me, is a good weapon and you can still find it in old spanish books and in books translations. (in legal articles too or in very formal things). Accents will be a problem...
If I were you, first I will study from an actual grammar book, and then from the old one, it'll be a better experience.

[poli]

Originally Posted by ookami

I agree with pjt33, but I think it's not that bad either. To know future subjuntive for me, is a good weapon and you can still find it in old spanish books and in books translations. (in legal articles too or in very formal things). Accents will be a problem...
If i were you, first I will study from an actual grammar book, and then from the old one, it'll be a better experience.

Nicely written English.

I would use current instead of actual, because the meaning of the word actual has morphed from its original meaning. Now it often means true instead of contemporary.

[ookami]

Thanks poli.
I didn't take that in account, thanks for the advise.
Goodbye

[LiamQ]

As perhaps one might imagine, it is rather difficult to find materials that address whether or not old textbooks are the best primary source to learn a modern, living language. Since I have spent a good bit of time attempting to find such materials, to no avail, I thank you all for the wonderful help you've given me.

[brute]

Like you I was reared on grammar books from a very early age in English, German and some Latin. In those days I could cope with a very concentrated diet of grammar and learned it at a rapid rate. However it was much later that I learned how to apply it to real vocabulary and real situations. In the last ten years or so I have studied with the British OU and I have had a more balanced diet of reading, writing and conversation. I cannot aborb grammar through my eyes like I once could, so now I rely more on the osmotic absorption which comes from repeated exposure to the target language. In other words my preferred learning style has changed over the years. However I have bought two modern but very detailed books written in the old style which should suit you. ¡EXACTO! A practical guide to Spanish Grammar ISBN 0-340-76309-4 and Barron's 501 Spanish verbs ISBN 0-7641-7984-5 . I hope this helps you in your quest.

[irmamar]

That's curious, the books you recommend about Spanish grammar have their tittles in English All my grammar English books have their tittles in English, too (there isn't even a Spanish word inside). Do you study Spanish in English?

[pjt33]

Irma, titles (and English grammar books). Es un poco difícil estudiar el español desde cero con libros en español.

[brute]

Originally Posted by pjt33

Irma, titles (and English grammar books). Es un poco difícil estudiar el español desde cero con libros en español.

Estoy de acuerdo. It would be even harder to start learning Chinese in Chinese!!

[bobjenkins]

Originally Posted by brute

Estoy de acuerdo. It would be even harder to start learning Chinese in Chinese!!

Jaja golpear una pared todo el día es más útil que lo hacer!