English grammar question for YOU the experts :-)

[Luna Azul]

I just replied to a post here and I used a sentence that left me thinking and not very happy.

I've seen this kind of usage so often that I'm getting used to it and I'm not even sure it's correct.

Here's my sentence:

"Every person who starts studying a language when they are not children anymore, translates from their native language."

Of course my problem is the bad use of the pronouns. I'm talking about "every person".. but then I'm saying "they are.." and then I'm using "translates" -in the singular because the subject is "every" person- and finally I end up saying "their" native language. A mess

I know somehow this is not right, but it seems to me the tendency is to use "they" and "their" in cases when the gender of the person is not clear and apparently no one wants to "offend" women by saying "he" or "his".

I need your insight on this because it's driving me crazy.

Please???

[poli]

Originally Posted by Luna Azul

I just replied to a post here and I used a sentence that left me thinking and not very happy.

I've seen this kind of usage so often that I'm getting used to it and I'm not even sure it's correct.

Here's my sentence:

"Every person who starts studying a language when they are not children anymore, translates from their native language."

Of course my problem is the bad use of the pronouns. I'm talking about "every person".. but then I'm saying "they are.." and then I'm using "translates" -in the singular because the subject is "every" person- and finally I end up saying "their" native language. A mess

I know somehow this is not right, but it seems to me the tendency is to use "they" and "their" in cases when the gender of the person is not clear and apparently no one wants to "offend" women by saying "he" or "his".

I need your insight on this because it's driving me crazy.

Please???

Contemporary English tries to be non-gender specific in these cases, and we use their instead of his or her. I was tought that it was OK to use their and they this way, and I see it written and spoken that way often. If you substitute every person with everybody your sentence would read better.
I would word the sentence in the following way:
Every adult who studies a foreign language translates from their native
language.

[Luna Azul]

Originally Posted by poli

Contemporary English tries to be non-gender specific in these cases, and we use their instead of his or her. I was tought that it was OK to use their and they this way, and I see it written and spoken that way often. If you substitute every person with everybody your sentence would read better.
I would word the sentence in the following way:
Every adult who studies a foreign language translates from their native
language.

Well, even though your sentence seems to be much better than mine, it follows the same pattern. You use "their" talking about "every adult".

Thanks a lot, that's what I wanted to know.

Would you say my sentence is terribly incorrect? Maybe I used more words than I needed, but I have that tendency when I'm explaining something. However, I think the sentence is understandable, right?

[wrholt]

Before the social changes in the US starting in the '60s, the "normal" way of writing was to use "he" for generic singular reference: "Every person who starts studying a language when he is not a child anymore..."

The way that you wrote it is very common in casual writing today, but some people object to indiscriminantly mixing singular and plural reference in order to avoid the appearance of using sexist language. Recasting your sentence to use only plural reference and use "they/their/them" is a common and effective way to resolve the conflict. Another common solution is to use "he or she", "his or her", and "him or her" consistently; however, many people find the constant repetition of double references to be clumsy. Some people advocate using "their", and "them" as ungendered substitutes for objects and possessives, but many people still object on the grounds that "their" and "them" feel plural.

[Luna Azul]

Originally Posted by wrholt

Before the social changes in the US starting in the '60s, the "normal" way of writing was to use "he" for generic singular reference: "Every person who starts studying a language when he is not a child anymore..."

The way that you wrote it is very common in casual writing today, but some people object to indiscriminantly mixing singular and plural reference in order to avoid the appearance of using sexist language. Recasting your sentence to use only plural reference and use "they/their/them" is a common and effective way to resolve the conflict. Another common solution is to use "he or she", "his or her", and "him or her" consistently; however, many people find the constant repetition of double references to be clumsy. Some people advocate using "their", and "them" as ungendered substitutes for objects and possessives, but many people still object on the grounds that "their" and "them" feel plural.

Thank you very much wrholt

It makes me very happy to know that was right, what you're saying is exactly what I thought but I wanted an educated native speaker to confirm it.

It still sounds very strange to me even though I use it, so I wanted to make sure I wasn't making a terrible mistake.

I find it a little silly, we still use the masculine form in Spanish and as far as I know, no one has said anything against it. I, as a female, don't get offended in the least by something like that.

Oh well..

Thanks a lot again..

[poli]

Don't worry about your English. You write better than most native speakers. About your sample sentence: there is a comma there that's not needed, and "people when they are not children anymore" is an unusual
and indirect way of describing an adult. It's not wrong; I confess that I am a person who is not a child anymore.

[Luna Azul]

Originally Posted by poli

Don't worry about your English. You write better than most native speakers. About your sample sentence: there is a comma there that's not needed, and "people when they are not children anymore"* is an unusual and indirect way of describing an adult. It's not wrong; I confess that I am a person who is not a child anymore.

*Political correctness . I'm pretty bad at punctuation in English. I stopped worrying about it a long time ago..

Thanks a lot!

[Awaken]

I just want to agree with wrholt and poli on this.

For a while, all my papers/homework had to use "he or she" as the pronoun (this was 20 years ago). Then in high school, we were taught to mix "he" and "she" evenly throughout the paper. However, in today's writing, I see "their" and "they" used almost always.

Remove that incorrect comma and your sentence in fine.

[Luna Azul]

Originally Posted by Awaken

I just want to agree with wrholt and poli on this.

For a while, all my papers/homework had to use "he or she" as the pronoun (this was 20 years ago). Then in high school, we were taught to mix "he" and "she" evenly throughout the paper. However, in today's writing, I see "their" and "they" used almost always.

Remove that incorrect comma and your sentence in fine.

Yes, of course. The comma. You never write a comma between the subject and the verb. That was silly, I'm not going to say it's a typo, but I did it without thinking. Thanks a lot!!!

[wrholt]

If the English-language wikipedia article about "singular they" is reliable, it appears that "singular they" has been around for quite a while, competing with generic 'he' and other methods of generic reference.

[laepelba]

I would definitely say that if it bothers you, try to rewrite the sentence so that you can avoid the use of both "he/his" AND "they/theirs". It is a bit awkward, but I'd rather not offend anyone, unless offense is my goal.

[Luna Azul]

Originally Posted by laepelba

I would definitely say that if it bothers you, try to rewrite the sentence so that you can avoid the use of both "he/his" AND "they/theirs". It is a bit awkward, but I'd rather not offend anyone, unless offense is my goal.

Hmm.. I'll just leave it like that. That's the way people speak today and I've lived here long enough to have gotten used to it...

Thanks!

[laepelba]

It's the way some people speak. I actually find it to be a bit awkward, too ... and I usually try to word things in such a way as to avoid the use of "they/their" in the kind of context that you're describing....