Subjunctive exercise 7-1

[laepelba]

¡Auxilio!

I have finished the majority of my workbook on the subjunctive, and I feel like I am far from the more thorough understanding I had hoped I would have.... I'm going to need to find more exercises on this.......

Anyway, the final chapter of the book consists entirely of exercises that mix up use of subjunctive, indicative, and infinitive ... present and past tenses ... and noun, adjective, adverb and hypothetical uses of the subjunctive. Again, I feel quite unprepared to master these exercises.

Here are my questions from the first set of problems (fill in the blank with a verb that is given):

6) Su mamá le dijo que se durmiera ya que era tarde.
My question: I don't even understand what this sentence means. I can't even come close to figuring it out. I know every word, but I come up with something like: "his mother told him that he slept already was late", which I am 100% positive is not even close to the true meaning...............

8) ¿No había vuelos que fueran a Tierra del Fuego en aquella época?
My question: Again, I don't really understand this ... (although it makes a LITTLE more sense to me than #6) ... the meaning I would come up with is something like: "Weren't there any flights to Tierra del Fuego in that time?" Grammatically, it makes sense to me ... but I don't really think that I have it right.......

15) El dependiente de la tienda salió después de que su jefe contara el dinero.
My question: I don't understand why the subjunctive is used here. I thought the underlined verb should be "contó", in the indicative. The shop assistant DID leave the shop, after the boss DID count the money. What is the reason for the subjunctive here?

16) No lo dejaría volver a casa a menos que dijera toda la historia escandalosa.
My question: Again, I don't understand the meaning of the sentence. My understanding would be something like: "He would not allow himself to return home unless he told the whole scandalous story." But that doesn't really make sense to me.....

17) Tenía un caballo que miraba mal de un ojo.
My question: AGAIN, I don't understand the meaning of this sentence. Is it something like: "He had a horse that couldn't see out of one eye."???? But doesn't "mirar" mean "to look", not "to see"????

25) Chicos, tan pronto como se pongan los zapatos, podremos salir.
My question: I thought the underlined verb should have been "se hayan puesto". Is that also correct? If not, why not?

Thank you SO MUCH for any help you can give me with these tantas preguntas!!!!

[Rusty]

6) dormirse = go to sleep (pronominal verb); dormir = to sleep
His mother told him to go to sleep since it was late.

8) Weren't there any flights that went to Tierra del Fuego in those days?

15) I think the writer is trying to say that only one thing occurred (the attendant left) and gave the reason for the delay. The subjunctive is used because that event anticipated the completion of the other (the money counting).

16) There's no reflexive pronoun in the sentence.
(He) wouldn't allow him to return home unless he told the whole scandalous story.

17) One of the meanings of mirar is to look at something. The horse was having trouble seeing (looking at something). Both ver and mirar mal de un ojo could be used.

25) Since the secondary clause is in a simple tense (as opposed to a compound tense), I would agree with the book's answer.

[wrholt]

It might make sense for me to wait until after one of our native-speaker friends here has responded, but I think I can explain a couple of these adequately.

Originally Posted by laepelba

¡Auxilio!
...
Here are my questions from the first set of problems (fill in the blank with a verb that is given):

6) Su mamá le dijo que se durmiera ya que era tarde.
My question: I don't even understand what this sentence means. I can't even come close to figuring it out. I know every word, but I come up with something like: "his mother told him that he slept already was late", which I am 100% positive is not even close to the true meaning...............

Does it help to remind you that dormirse (the pronominal/reflexive verb) typically means "to fall/go to sleep"? I read this as "His mama told him to go to sleep as it was already late."

Originally Posted by laepelba

8) ¿No había vuelos que fueran a Tierra del Fuego en aquella época?
My question: Again, I don't really understand this ... (although it makes a LITTLE more sense to me than #6) ... the meaning I would come up with is something like: "Weren't there any flights to Tierra del Fuego in that time?" Grammatically, it makes sense to me ... but I don't really think that I have it right.......

I'm reasonably confident that you understood this one perfectly.

Originally Posted by laepelba

15) El dependiente de la tienda salió después de que su jefe contara el dinero.
My question: I don't understand why the subjunctive is used here. I thought the underlined verb should be "contó", in the indicative. The shop assistant DID leave the shop, after the boss DID count the money. What is the reason for the subjunctive here?

This looks strange to me, too. Perhaps there is an unusual nuance that using past subjunctive adds here, but I think it's more likely that there's a mistake in this one: either the conjunction should be "antes de que", or the verb should be "contó".

Originally Posted by laepelba

16) No lo dejaría volver a casa a menos que dijera toda la historia escandalosa.
My question: Again, I don't understand the meaning of the sentence. My understanding would be something like: "He would not allow himself to return home unless he told the whole scandalous story." But that doesn't really make sense to me.....

The ONLY third-person reflexive/pronominal pronoun is "se". "No se lo dejaría" CANNOT be pronominal/reflexive becuase "lo" NEVER refers to the subject of the verb. And "dejaría" is both 1st person singular AND 3rd person singular. So the sentence starts "I/you/he/she wouldn't allow him..."

Originally Posted by laepelba

17) Tenía un caballo que miraba mal de un ojo.
My question: AGAIN, I don't understand the meaning of this sentence. Is it something like: "He had a horse that couldn't see out of one eye."???? But doesn't "mirar" mean "to look", not "to see"????

I haven't encountered the expression "mirar mal de un ojo" before, though I read it as "to see poorly out of one eye". And "mirar" means "to look", except when it means "to see" or "to watch". One of the dirty little secrets of learning another language is that more often than not the ranges of meanings of translation equivalents don't line up perfectly.

Originally Posted by laepelba

25) Chicos, tan pronto como se pongan los zapatos, podremos salir.
My question: I thought the underlined verb should have been "se hayan puesto". Is that also correct? If not, why not?
...

I think both are okay, just as in the possible translations to English: "Kids, as soon as you (have) put on your shoes we can leave."

[aleCcowaN]

6) dormirse = to get to sleep; (to kids) to go to bed and get to sleep

8) you got it right though the real meaning stands between your translation and Rusty's. English has no features for that intermediate position. Spanish has subjunctive.

6-8 are typical examples of subjunctive casting a verb into a nominal, adjectival or adverbial clause; a typical feature in Spanish that is mastered at early age by native speakers. This should tell you that you need exercises without an English sentence to translate or a Spanish sentence to fill in but with some hints and you forced to think in Spanish. To check the answers to those exercises there are teachers and a pretty new technology called web forums.

15) Subjunctive because it is information that is already known and it's used just as a reference or it is referred as a thing:

El dependiente salió después de que su jefe contó el dinero.

or

El jefe contó el dinero... El dependiente salió después de que su jefe contara el dinero. (información ya conocida)

or

El jefe contó el dinero... El dependiente salió después de que su jefe contara el dinero. (deemphasized information, meaning it is provided just as a reference and it's outside the main stream of events)

The last one is difficult to catch, but I have to mention this "información no conocida" business once and again through the ages in several web forums, what really surprises me as it is everyday Spanish and the main source of natives of all colours constantly switching between modes -and not being aware of it-; a so common and obvious feature of Spanish subjunctive that grammar books in Spanish hardly bother in mentioning it. The whole situation makes me wonder who is teaching out there and how.

17) "...veía mal de un ojo". "Miraba" is definitively wrong. Mexicans mixing up "ver" and "mirar" and Argentines mixing up "oir" and "escuchar" are not to be imitated. Those uses are semantical guerrilla.

25) Subjunctive "pongan" is an alternative to logically sound "hayan puesto" that by suppressing the perfective aspect -action completed before the other action starts- highlights two issues: the action has not been done yet -subjunctive pointing to "not doing"- and the action is a command -subjunctive used as imperative-.

[wrholt]

Originally Posted by wrholt

...
This looks strange to me, too. Perhaps there is an unusual nuance that using past subjunctive adds here, but I think it's more likely that there's a mistake in this one: either the conjunction should be "antes de que", or the verb should be "contó".
...

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN

...
El jefe contó el dinero... El dependiente salió después de que su jefe contara el dinero. (deemphasized information, meaning it is provided just as a reference and it's outside the main stream of events)

The last one is difficult to catch, but I have to mention this "información no conocida" business once and again through the ages in several web forums, what really surprises me as it is everyday Spanish and the main source of natives of all colours constantly switching between modes -and not being aware of it-; a so common and obvious feature of Spanish subjunctive that grammar books in Spanish hardly bother in mentioning it. The whole situation makes me wonder who is teaching out there and how.
...

Ah! Yes, this particular usage escapes me regularly. I'm in the midst of re-reading my copy of Butt & Benjamin (a page or 3 per evening), and I haven't gotten to the chapters on subjunctive yet. I hope that I remember to check whether they discuss this particular usage when I get to those chapters, assuming that my over-active forgettory(tm) doesn't interfere.

[aleCcowaN]

Lozano's paper. Looking for "ya conocida" will take you to many different structures and examples.

Originally Posted by wrholt

... forgettory(tm) ....

I suppose many of us are using that technology without paying royalties

[wrholt]

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN

Lozano's paper. Looking for "ya conocida" will take you to many different structures and examples.

How did you know that I'm a closet wannabe linguist? Oh, right...never mind. Thanks for the link.

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN

I suppose many of us are using that technology without paying royalties

Actually, I believe that the forgettory(tm) is the standard factory-installed equipment, and that the thing we call "memory" is in reality the symptom of the occasional failure of the device.

[wafflestomp]

Basically the best way to remember it is if it is past first with a subjunctive indicator you have to also have a past subjunctive after.

[aleCcowaN]

Originally Posted by wafflestomp

Basically the best way to remember it is if it is past first with a subjunctive indicator you have to also have a past subjunctive after.

What's "it" (the first one)?

[chileno]

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN

What's "it" (the first one)?

recordarlo

[aleCcowaN]

Originally Posted by chileno

recordarlo

What's "lo"?

¿Qué es esto? ¿El aniversario de Abott y Costello?

[chileno]

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN

What's "lo"?

¿Qué es esto? ¿El aniversario de Abott y Costello?

Got it!



(me pareció rara la pregunta)

[laepelba]

I haven't had a lot of time to sit down and work through these responses this week... First of all, thank you everyone! I greatly appreciate the time that you all devote to helping us learn Spanish! Alec - I pay a lot of money for a private tutor, but she and I focus on conversation and not on grammar. In fact, I think it's almost a waste of our time for me to ask her questions about grammar that I should be able to research and find the answers myself ... I pay her to do what I cannot do for myself which is the listening and speaking practice. The grammar and vocabulary I am teaching to myself ... thus the answer to your ponderings about who is teaching what to whom.....

I still have some questions about some of these:

Originally Posted by Rusty

6) dormirse = go to sleep (pronominal verb); dormir = to sleep
His mother told him to go to sleep since it was late.

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN

6) dormirse = to get to sleep; (to kids) to go to bed and get to sleep.

6-8 are typical examples of subjunctive casting a verb into a nominal, adjectival or adverbial clause; a typical feature in Spanish that is mastered at early age by native speakers. This should tell you that you need exercises without an English sentence to translate or a Spanish sentence to fill in but with some hints and you forced to think in Spanish. To check the answers to those exercises there are teachers and a pretty new technology called web forums.

I understand that I made an error with the "sleep" vs "go to sleep", but the sentence still does not make sense to me. I don't understand where the command is given. She told him to go to sleep? It seems to be saying "She told him that he goes to sleep...." I also don't understand "ya que". I thought that "ya" meaning "already" typically precedes a verb...

This problem set gave the exercise sentences in Spanish without English translations. I am working hard at trying to think in Spanish, but the sad fact is that it doesn't make sense to me in Spanish or in English... :-/

Originally Posted by Rusty

15) I think the writer is trying to say that only one thing occurred (the attendant left) and gave the reason for the delay. The subjunctive is used because that event anticipated the completion of the other (the money counting).

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN

15) Subjunctive because it is information that is already known and it's used just as a reference or it is referred as a thing:

El dependiente salió después de que su jefe contó el dinero.

or

El jefe contó el dinero... El dependiente salió después de que su jefe contara el dinero. (información ya conocida)

or

El jefe contó el dinero... El dependiente salió después de que su jefe contara el dinero. (deemphasized information, meaning it is provided just as a reference and it's outside the main stream of events)

The last one is difficult to catch, but I have to mention this "información no conocida" business once and again through the ages in several web forums, what really surprises me as it is everyday Spanish and the main source of natives of all colours constantly switching between modes -and not being aware of it-; a so common and obvious feature of Spanish subjunctive that grammar books in Spanish hardly bother in mentioning it. The whole situation makes me wonder who is teaching out there and how.

Originally Posted by wafflestomp

Basically the best way to remember it is if it is past first with a subjunctive indicator you have to also have a past subjunctive after.

I'm still not quite following this. My grammar book says that "después de que" is sometimes an indicator of upcoming subjunctive, and that the deciding factor is the anticipation. If someone does something AFTER (not before, which obviously requires the subjunctive), and both things happened in the past, I don't see the subjunctive anticipation there. I also don't really get the stuff about "información ya/no conocida" and what it has to do with the subjunctive....

Originally Posted by Rusty

17) One of the meanings of mirar is to look at something. The horse was having trouble seeing (looking at something). Both ver and mirar mal de un ojo could be used.

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN

17) "...veía mal de un ojo". "Miraba" is definitively wrong. Mexicans mixing up "ver" and "mirar" and Argentines mixing up "oir" and "escuchar" are not to be imitated. Those uses are semantical guerrilla.

I guess I was wondering if "mirar mal de un ojo" was some sort of modismo or something with which I'm not familiar. That sentence, out of context, seems to me to be describing a more generic description of someone's horse........

Thank you again, all!!!

[aleCcowaN]

Originally Posted by laepelba

Alec - I pay a lot of money for a private tutor, but she and I focus on conversation and not on grammar. In fact, I think it's almost a waste of our time for me to ask her questions about grammar that I should be able to research and find the answers myself ... I pay her to do what I cannot do for myself which is the listening and speaking practice. The grammar and vocabulary I am teaching to myself ... thus the answer to your ponderings about who is teaching what to whom.....

You've said the very reason for studying and practicing subjunctive with your tutor. Later I'll suggest some practice you can do on the subject, but in the meantime you are saying that you can fool around in a gym full of equipment and with a well provided library in the cafeteria and go out now and then to get some feedback for a trainer, all in order to get a fantastic body. There's no replacement for in-gym trainers who act on the spot and stops you when they see you are doing it in the wrong position, order or with an excessive weight. In other matters you're right, but you "do" subjunctive as "thinking" subjunctive will bring you nowhere. A formal explanation about how subjunctive works is as effective for learning purposes as a brochure teaching you all what you need to ride a bicycle.

Originally Posted by laepelba

I understand that I made an error with the "sleep" vs "go to sleep", but the sentence still does not make sense to me. I don't understand where the command is given. She told him to go to sleep? It seems to be saying "She told him that he goes to sleep...." I also don't understand "ya que". I thought that "ya" meaning "already" typically precedes a verb...

This problem set gave the exercise sentences in Spanish without English translations. I am working hard at trying to think in Spanish, but the sad fact is that it doesn't make sense to me in Spanish or in English... :-/

The command part is implied by dijo -a mild way to say ordenó-. "Ya" competes with "quedar" in driving crazy English speaking students. Preventively, there's no "ya que" expression. "Que" is a conjunction which binds "era tarde" to the preceding phrase in a logical fashion and thus pointing the intended meaning of "ya": "as" or "since".

"Their mother told them to go to sleep since it was late"

Originally Posted by laepelba

I'm still not quite following this. My grammar book says that "después de que" is sometimes an indicator of upcoming subjunctive, and that the deciding factor is the anticipation. If someone does something AFTER (not before, which obviously requires the subjunctive), and both things happened in the past, I don't see the subjunctive anticipation there. I also don't really get the stuff about "información ya/no conocida" and what it has to do with the subjunctive....

Perhaps you may set this example aside and move on. There's sort of a practical rule to follow: an assertion about subjunctive must be followed by at least one example implementing it. "My book tells -long winded unspecific explanation in English language-" is most probably the source of all the problems and not the starting point of any solution.

Originally Posted by laepelba

I guess I was wondering if "mirar mal de un ojo" was some sort of modismo or something with which I'm not familiar. That sentence, out of context, seems to me to be describing a more generic description of someone's horse........

It most probably described a horse with squint eyes, said in a way that is common from Tijuana to Managua. Alternatively, a horse with an obvious pathology in one eye, like a cataract. It might be a horse showing evidence of one-eyed blindness. It's almost impossible any meaning outside that list and region, as I don't know horses that look with disdain -though sometimes, they should-.

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN

You've said the very reason for studying and practicing subjunctive with your tutor. Later I'll suggest some practice you can do on the subject, but in the meantime you are saying that you can fool around in a gym full of equipment and with a well provided library in the cafeteria and go out now and then to get some feedback for a trainer, all in order to get a fantastic body. There's no replacement for in-gym trainers who act on the spot and stops you when they see you are doing it in the wrong position, order or with an excessive weight. In other matters you're right, but you "do" subjunctive as "thinking" subjunctive will bring you nowhere. A formal explanation about how subjunctive works is as effective for learning purposes as a brochure teaching you all what you need to ride a bicycle.

The command part is implied by dijo -a mild way to say ordenó-. "Ya" competes with "quedar" in driving crazy English speaking students. Preventively, there's no "ya que" expression. "Que" is a conjunction which binds "era tarde" to the preceding phrase in a logical fashion and thus pointing the intended meaning of "ya": "as" or "since".

"Their mother told them to go to sleep since it was late"

"Su mamá le dijo que se durmiera ya que era tarde." - I may need to set this one aside for understanding at a later date, too. Part of the confusion, I'm sure, is that in English, we would use the infinitive ("His mother told him to go to sleep....") and the idea of "que" being roughly similar to "that".

Is it possible that the "ya" is part of the phrase/meaning with the "se durmiera" and NOT the "era tarde"?

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by laepelba

"Su mamá le dijo que se durmiera ya que era tarde."
Part of the confusion, I'm sure, is that in English, we would use the infinitive ("His mother told him to go to sleep....") and the idea of "que" being roughly similar to "that".
The American English structure that you understand so well is devoid of the subjunctive. In Spanish, however, the sentence must have the subordinate clause and the subjunctive is mandatory, since the verb in the main clause is one of volition.
You can reword the English sentence to use the subjunctive, but it won't sound as natural to you.

Is it possible that the "ya" is part of the phrase/meaning with the "se durmiera" and NOT the "era tarde"? Nope.

Ya que is a conjunction meaning since. The two words definitely go together, and they go with the 'it was late' phrase.

[chileno]

Originally Posted by laepelba

"Su mamá le dijo que se durmiera ya que era tarde." - I may need to set this one aside for understanding at a later date, too. Part of the confusion, I'm sure, is that in English, we would use the infinitive ("His mother told him to go to sleep....") and the idea of "que" being roughly similar to "that".

Is it possible that the "ya" is part of the phrase/meaning with the "se durmiera" and NOT the "era tarde"?

Does the following phrase help you any?

His mother told him he better go/went to sleep, since it was late (in the evening).

[aleCcowaN]

Originally Posted by laepelba

"Su mamá le dijo que se durmiera ya que era tarde." - I may need to set this one aside for understanding at a later date, too. Part of the confusion, I'm sure, is that in English, we would use the infinitive ("His mother told him to go to sleep....") and the idea of "que" being roughly similar to "that".

Is it possible that the "ya" is part of the phrase/meaning with the "se durmiera" and NOT the "era tarde"?

Duérmete ya, que es tarde [Go to sleep right now; it's late]["que" binds "es tarde" to "duérmete ya"; in performing the action, "ya" refers only to the initial step, not the final result]
Le dije que se fuera a dormir, ya que era tarde [I told him to go to sleep since it was late] ["que" binds "era tarde" to "ya" giving that meaning of since]
Ya que era tarde, juzgó conveniente enviar a su hijo a dormir [Seeing that it was late, she decided she'd better send her son to bed.] ["que" binds "era tarde" to "ya"]

It's always tempting to think of "ya que" as an idiom, because its meaning seem to contrast with "ya" alone. But "ya" is a versatile creature; it has to do with drastic changes in the time axis, like a switch turning on and off, and it carries with itself some quality of "all of a sudden" that is preserved in present when we translate it to English "now" but it's somewhat lost when translated to past "already". With a phrase bound by "que" the temporal aspect becomes causal and the steepness of "ya" becomes sort of a harsh because, something beyond any need of justification, not by the power of force or authority but by the power of logic.

About "ya" and "que" being separate items, you may think of it as "since" but also as "seeing that", "inasmuch as" and "because of", so you may imagine "since" to be a two-independent-word expression.

ya ----> already ---> that's it!
ya ----> now ------> at once!
ya (before que) ---> since ----> of course!