grammar analysis of 'dejar(le) a alguien hacer algo'

[Nfqufktc]

I would appreciate it if you could clarifty the following points re. the previous thread about the forms of the indirect object. I posted the points there but I am concerned if they are likely to have passed unnoticed in the lower levels of the thread. That is why I am making a new thread to show them on top of the list.

1.
a. To express the indirect object relationship: the unstressed indirect object pronoun les + the clarifier (the preposition a + indirect object noun) (clarifier to be used to express explicitly whom smth is done for)

to bring sth for sb (Les trajeron los libros a los estudiantes)
b. The preposition para is to be used to specifically express whom something is done for.

I cannot help but notice there is a certain parallelism between the two constructions (use of clarifier vs. para)

It was wrong of me to equate the sentences in my samples.

"Compren la muñeca para ella" - recipient specifically expressed
"Cómprenle la muñeca a ella" - indirect object relationship routinely expressed

2.

A) indirect object relationship:
Háblele Ud. al gerente.
Speak to the manager. (That's why he is here for and he WILL listen to your plea (will offer himself as /will act as a good listener)

B) indirect object relationship + prepositional complement
Hable con el gerente
Go and ask the manager to listen to you (try to get him interested in what you have to say so hopefully he'll have a conversation with you about your problem)

C) indirect object relationship + complex subject?
Háblele usted con el gerente.
When I was studying your explanation I had an idea that it might be part of a complex subject but I discarded it as in that case it would've had nothing to do with the verb hablar. Was my hunch correct? Like "my father and I"?

You, together with the manager, go and talk to him (third party).
You and the manager, go and talk to him (third party).

3.
Will you check my analysis of 'dejar(le) a alguien hacer algo' so I won't make a blunder like that again?
Déjame hablar a mí
This sentence is in the imperative. The implied subject is tú. me is the direct object (Will you allow whom?) and hablar is the infinitive complement. I would venture an guess that 'me hablar' serves as an infinitive clause with me acting like a subject. The stressed form a mí is used emphaticallly.

Thank you.

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

1.- It's understandable the confusion about both constructions "a alguien" and "para alguien", because they're compatible. I had to go and check the book to see why they couldn't be interchangeable.

Both sentences "Compren la muñeca para ella" and "Cómprenle la muñeca a ella", are explicitly expressing the recipient, but in one case, grammatically, it's a prepositional complement and in the other it's an indirect object complement. The main difference is that while in the first one you are expressing who benefits from the action, in the other is just the recipient of the action, whether they benefit or not from it.


2.- You're right. When you say: "háblele usted con el gerente", there are three people involved here: The person to whom the client and the manager will be talking to, the client and the manager who will accompany the client to see that other person.
The reason why this third person got involved, is because we cannot use the redundant pronoun with "para" the same way we use it with "a". So, a hypothetical situation where "le" and "para alguien" could be used was the fact that "le" would refer to someone else.
The person giving the instruction "háblele usted con el gerente" is addressing the client, asking them to be accompanied by the manager when talking to this third person. They won't use the imperative in the plural form (as if it were "my father and I") because the employee is only addressing the client, and the manager is just a complement in the sentence.
Your translations seem correct to me.

Originally Posted by Nfqufktc

3.
Will you check my analysis of 'dejar(le) a alguien hacer algo' so I won't make a blunder like that again? -> Never worry about making mistakes. That's how we learn and acquire fluidity. Anyway, these are complex sentences and it's a horribly confusing grammar topic.

Déjame hablar a mí
This sentence is in the imperative.
The implied subject is tú.
me is the direct object (Will you allow whom?) -> I was taught that "whom" may be used for the indirect object and for the direct object, so I think we could ask: "whom will you let do the talking?"
and hablar is the infinitive complement.


I would venture an guess that 'me hablar' serves as an infinitive clause with me acting like a subject.
-> "Me hablar" don't go together. It's "dejar + pronoun" (Here: "deja" + "me") for this structure.
The main verb is "dejar". You can say:
- Deja hablar. -> (Tú) Let (people) talk.
- Deje pasar. -> (Usted) Give way.
- Dejen comer. -> (Ustedes) Let (people) eat (without being disturbed).
- Vive y deja morir -> (You) Live and let die. ????
In all these cases, since there is no pronoun or an explicit recipient of the action, we are talking about people in general.

When you introduce a direct object, you refer to a specific recipient of the action, but the subject is still the same of the main verb:
- Deja al señor hablar. -> Déjalo hablar. -> (Tú) Let the gentleman talk.
- Deje pasar a la niña. -> Déjela pasar. -> (Usted) Let her through.
- Dejen comer a nuestro invitado. -> Déjenlo comer. -> (Ustedes) Let our guest eat.
- Vive y deja morir a los demás. -> Vive y déjalos morir. -> (Tú) Live and leteveryone else die.

The stressed form a mí is used emphaticallly.

[Nfqufktc]

Thank you, AngelicaDeAlquezar.

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

Glad to help!

[Nfqufktc]

1&2.

Would you agree that 'háblele usted con el gerente' analytically mirrors the samples 'Juana le compró al vecino unos pasteles para la niña. Joan bought some pastry for the girl from the neighbor.' and 'El generoso profesor le dio el dinero para el libro. The generous professor gave him the money for the book.'?
Would you agree that in the above case the prepositional phrase 'con el gerente' is used to express another kind of prepositional complement, namely, the relationship of accompaniment as 'con' is followed by an animate being 'el gerente'?

3.

-> "Me hablar" don't go together.

Your explanation is explicit and it makes perfect sense.
This topic merits a separate thread. I will address it at a later time.

Thank you.

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

I don't think these three examples are comparable.

- Hable usted con el supervisor y que el gerente vaya con usted.
-> Talk to the supervisor and get the manager to go with you.
? Háblele usted con el gerente.
This sentence is confusing because "con" has two different meanings here:
In "hable con él", "con" is working as some sort of personal pronoun like "conmigo"/"contigo", where a mutual interaction is established between both persons.
And in "con el gerente", "con" means in the company of the manager.
=> Hable con el supervisor en compañía del gerente.

Trying to use your other examples, comparable sentences would be like:
- Juana compró con el vecino unos pasteles para comer con la niña.
-> Juana bought at the neighbour's place some pastry to eat with the girl.
? Juana le compró pasteles para comerlos con ella. -> I'm forcing here the "le" on a prepositional complement to make the sentence shorter, because it's compatible with the indirect object, but it's the same case as "hablar con".
The sentence here means that Juana bought the pastry, in an interaction with the neighbour, to eat in the company of the girl.

- El generoso profesor trajo con él* el dinero y se lo dio al estudiante para comprar con él el libro.
-> The generous professor brought the money with him and gave it to the student to buy the book together.
*This should strictly be "consigo", but daily speech is forgetting that this pronoun exists, so I'm using what people are more likely to say.
? El generoso profesor le dio el dinero para comprar el libro con él.
-> And as you can see, the IO/DO pronouns here are not really suitable for making this sentence shorter, but I couldn't find any other sentence with the same usages of "con".
Anyway, "consigo"/"con él" works like a reflexive pronoun, becuse the interaction is happening with the same person, and the second "con él" means that the professor will accompany the student to buy the book.

I hope I answered your questions, but if something is missing, let me know.

[Nfqufktc]

Thank you, AngelicaDeAlquezar.