Ejercicio subjuntivo 3-3

[laepelba]

This is a translation exercise. The sentences are given in English and I was supposed to translate them to Spanish. I have included the original English, the book's Spanish answer, and my questions.

6)
English: Is it necessary that we pay for the food here?
Answer the book gives: ¿Es necessario que paguemos la comida aquí?
My question: Why is the subjunctive required here? Is it always required with "es necesario que"? What other verbs would be in the same category? Something like "pedir"?

7)
English: Her bosses expected her to tape all the phone calls.
Answer the book gives: Sus jefes esperaban que ella grabara todas las llamadas telefónicas.
My question: I always have trouble with the idea of "to expect" from English to Spanish in this sense ... It's not the same as having high hopes for something, but more of a requirement. My students are expected to do their homework. It's not that I hope they do their homework. It is something that they ought to do. "Esperar" seems too soft for this context. The Spanish version of this seems to me to say that her bosses hoped that she recorded all of the calls (while they were away?), but that they're not really sure that she did so......

8)
English: The police asked the people to look for the lost dog.
Answer the book gives: La policía pidió que la gente buscara el perro extraviado.
My question: Could it also have been "...el perro perdido"??

10)
English: Were they angry that she had returned early?
Answer the book gives: ¿Se enojaron de que ella hubiera vuelto temprano?
My question: Why isn't it "se enojaban..."??

Thank you for any help that you can give me!

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

I can't say much about the reasons why subjunctive grammar is like the way it is, but:

6) "Es necesario que" and "pedir que" should be in your old list of expressions that use a subjunctive.

7) The idea that she didn't actually record all the conversations comes from "esperaban", not from the subjunctive. They were expecting her to do something and they seem to have found out she didn't.
Btw, the notions of "to hope" and "to expect" need a subjunctive in Spanish, if it helps.

8) Extraviado = perdido

10) "Se enojaban" = "they used to be angry", which is not the intention of this sentence.

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

7) The idea that she didn't actually record all the conversations comes from "esperaban", not from the subjunctive. They were expecting her to do something and they seem to have found out she didn't.
Btw, the notions of "to hope" and "to expect" need a subjunctive in Spanish, if it helps.

10) "Se enojaban" = "they used to be angry", which is not the intention of this sentence.

Thank you, Malila! I still have some questions.....

7) So the use of "esperar" indicates some doubt as to whether she did it or not? If that's the case, then it's really not the way I use the word "expect" in English. When I use "expect", there is a LOT more certainty that something was actually done. I actually have no questions about why the subjunctive is used here. My question was solely about the use of "esperar".....

10) I guess I don't get it (stilllllll with issues with imperfect vs. preterit) ... because I thought that you typically use the imperfect for descriptive verbs about something in the past ... as if to say "were they in the process of being angry that she arrived late?" It doesn't seem to me that the enojarse was something that happened only briefly in a moment.... uyyyy ...

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by laepelba

7) So the use of "esperar" indicates some doubt as to whether she did it or not? If that's the case, then it's really not the way I use the word "expect" in English. When I use "expect", there is a LOT more certainty that something was actually done. I actually have no questions about why the subjunctive is used here. My question was solely about the use of "esperar".....
...

I'm glad you say this. I am forming the opinion that Spanish speakers don't really see the difference between 'hope' and 'expect' which is absolutely clear in English. Nobody has been able to explain to me how to use 'esperar' in different ways so that the difference is clear. It seems to depend on context as to which fits better, but in your example either could make sense.

But then perhaps it's just me.

Can somebody translate into Spanish:

England expected that every man would do his duty
England hoped that every man would do his duty

Thanks

[wrholt]

To add on to AdA's observations:

7. This is the past-tense equivalent of "Her bosses expect her to tape all the phone calls." = "Sus jefes esperan que ella grabe todas las llamadas telefónicas." In both cases (past and present), the recording is a future, hypothetical event from the point of view of the time of expecting.

10. Imperfect is about something that is in the process of happening. Preterite is about what has completed. "Se enojaron" = they became upset (their state changed as a result of something; the change was instant).

[laepelba]

So, in #10, it's not about the fact that the anger had a distinct end-time, but a distinct beginning-time and we're talking about something that happened previously?

[Cloudgazer]

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

7) The idea that she didn't actually record all the conversations comes from "esperaban", not from the subjunctive. They were expecting her to do something and they seem to have found out she didn't.
Btw, the notions of "to hope" and "to expect" need a subjunctive in Spanish, if it helps.

¡Hola, Angelica! Así que ¿podríamos decir "esperaba que + «algo estaría cumplido»" donde la experiencia de alguien es que otro siempre cumplía lo que tenía que hacer y, por tanto, sabía esperar que estaría cumplido?

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

10) "Se enojaban" = "they used to be angry", which is not the intention of this sentence.

¿Dirías que se usó el pretérito porque se estaban refiriendo a un acontecimiento específico? Es cómo lo veo.

----

Además, estoy pensando de tres situaciones:

1) El interlocutor sabe que la mujer había vuelto temprano pero no que los otros se enojaron (sólo se pregunta si se enojaron debido al regreso temprano).

2) El interlocutor sabe que la mujer había vuelto temprano y que los otros se enojaron (pero no por qué).

3) El interlocutor no sabe que la mujer había vuelto temprano pero sí que los otros se enojaron por alguna razón (y se pregunta si un regreso temprano era la razón.)

¿Cómo se haría la pregunta de manera correcta en cada caso?

¡Gracias de antemano!

[wrholt]

Originally Posted by laepelba

So, in #10, it's not about the fact that the anger had a distinct end-time, but a distinct beginning-time and we're talking about something that happened previously?

Enojarse = to become angry (an instantaneous event), not to be angry (a continuous state). Se enojaban = they used to become angry normally doesn't refer to the middle one occurrence of becoming angry, but to habitually becoming angry over some period of time or to an undetermined number of occurrences of becoming angry over the course of some undetermined period of time.

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by wrholt

Enojarse = to become angry (an instantaneous event), not to be angry (a continuous state). Se enojaban = they used to become angry normally doesn't refer to the middle one occurrence of becoming angry, but to habitually becoming angry over some period of time or to an undetermined number of occurrences of becoming angry over the course of some undetermined period of time.

THAT is helpful. So it's about my misunderstanding of the verb........

[Cloudgazer]

Hay un caso frecuente en que se enojaban se refería al medio de una circunstancia de enojarse, «imperfecto + cuando + pretérito».

P. ej.,

Se enojaban por la música alto cuando algo peor pasó: ¡el baile empezó!
They were becoming angry about the loud music when something worse happened: the dancing began!

[laepelba]

What about something that would have been ongoing? For example, if they continually used to get angry when the neighbors regularly played their music loudly on a weeknight. How would I say that? "Se enojaban cuando los vecinos escuchaban música muy alta en las noches entre semana" or something similar?

[wrholt]

Originally Posted by laepelba

What about something that would have been ongoing? For example, if they continually used to get angry when the neighbors regularly played their music loudly on a weeknight. How would I say that? "Se enojaban cuando los vecinos escuchaban música muy alta en las noches entre semana" or something similar?

Perfect!

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

Originally Posted by laepelba

7) So the use of "esperar" indicates some doubt as to whether she did it or not? If that's the case, then it's really not the way I use the word "expect" in English. When I use "expect", there is a LOT more certainty that something was actually done. I actually have no questions about why the subjunctive is used here. My question was solely about the use of "esperar".....

It's not the use of the verb, but the conjugation. As I underlined, they "were expecting" her to do something. It was an action that was happening until they discovered she didn't do what they wanted her to.

10) I guess I don't get it (stilllllll with issues with imperfect vs. preterit) ... because I thought that you typically use the imperfect for descriptive verbs about something in the past ... as if to say "were they in the process of being angry that she arrived late?" It doesn't seem to me that the enojarse was something that happened only briefly in a moment.... uyyyy ...

Ok... I'm not sure now about how this works in English, but for me there is a difference between "they got angry" (se enojaron) and "they were angry" ("estaban enojados"). I know your book uses "they were", but the use of the expression in Spanish has to be slightly different, as they were not in the process of becoming angry. The question is how could they could get angry because of her arriving early, when one usually expects that parents, for example, get angry when their children arrive late.

Originally Posted by Perikles

I am forming the opinion that Spanish speakers don't really see the difference between 'hope' and 'expect' which is absolutely clear in English.

"Esperar" can certainly have both meanings, "to expect" and "to hope". Context will tell.

Can somebody translate into Spanish:
If you want to mark the difference:

England expected that every man would do his duty
Inglaterra esperaba que todos los hombres cumplieran con su deber.

England hoped that every man would do his duty
Inglaterra tenía la esperanza de que todos los hombres cumplieran con su deber.

Originally Posted by Cloudgazer

¡Hola, Angelica! Así que ¿podríamos decir "esperaba que + «algo estaría cumplido»" donde la experiencia de alguien es que otro siempre cumplía lo que tenía que hacer y, por tanto, sabía esperar que estaría cumplido?

¡Hola, Cloud! Me parece que no es exactamente por la experiencia anterior. El copretérito dice que una acción se realizaba en el pasado, pero ya no, así que "esperaba que" expresa que alguien tenía una expectativa pero ya no (sea porque se haya cumplido o no).

- Esperaba que vinieran, pero nunca llegaron. (No se cumplió)
- Esperaba que vinieran a las diez, pero llegaron a las ocho. (Se cumplió que llegaran, y aún más temprano de lo que se esperaba.)

¿Dirías que se usó el pretérito porque se estaban refiriendo a un acontecimiento específico? Es como lo veo.

Diría que se usó el pretérito, porque enojarse no es un proceso que dure. "Estar enojado" sí implica una noción de duración.

Además, estoy pensando en tres situaciones:

1) El interlocutor sabe que la mujer había vuelto temprano pero no que los otros se enojaron (sólo se pregunta si se enojaron debido al regreso temprano).
¿Regresó temprano? ¿Y ellos se enojaron?

2) El interlocutor sabe que la mujer había vuelto temprano y que los otros se enojaron (pero no por qué).

¿Por qué se enojaron, porque regresó temprano?

3) El interlocutor no sabe que la mujer había vuelto temprano pero sí que los otros se enojaron por alguna razón (y se pregunta si un regreso temprano era la razón.)

¿Por qué se enojaron? ¿Sería porque regresó temprano?

¿Cómo se haría la pregunta de manera correcta en cada caso?

Creo que la pregunta inicial serviría para todos los casos, pero en realidad parece tratarse de una persona que se encuentra desconcertada por la razón del enojo.

Originally Posted by Cloudgazer

Se enojaban por la música alto cuando algo peor pasó: ¡el baile empezó!
They were becoming angry about the loud music when something worse happened: the dancing began!

Here I'd use rather "se estaban enojando" (that's a process of becoming angry).

"Se enojaban" is more often said when people used to get angry for some reason:
- Mis padres siempre se enojaban cuando yo llegaba tarde.
My parents always got angry when I came home late.

- El perro se enojaba si le jalaba la cola, y no lo aprendí hasta que me mordió un brazo.
The dog used to get angry if I pulled its tail, and I didn't learn until he bit my arm.

- Antes, decíamos "el hombre" para hablar de la humanidad y ninguna mujer se enojaba.
Some time ago, we used to say "the man" to talk about humankind and no woman would get angry.

I hope I didn't make it all more confusing.

[Cloudgazer]

Siempre puedo contar contigo, Angelica. Mil y una gracias por tu ayuda.

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

"Esperar" can certainly have both meanings, "to expect" and "to hope". Context will tell.

Can somebody translate into Spanish:
If you want to mark the difference:

Thank you. This provides some insight - the problem is that there are many cases where context will not tell, and there is such a clear difference in English between hope and expect that I find leaving the ambiguity in Spanish is mystifying. I mean: 'if you want to mark the difference' - when would you not want to mark the difference?

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

When you assume the context will be clear enough?


If the surgeon says "espero que todo salga bien en la operación", he's saying "I expect". (One assumes he has knowledge enough to be sure about the result of the operation.)
If the patient says "espero que todo salga bien en la operación", he's saying "I hope". (Patient cannot know so much as to expect success.)
If a relative or a friend of the patient says "espero que todo salga bien", he's saying both, "I expect" to reassure the patient, and "I hope" to express solidarity with the patient.

A few days ago, I heard a woman talking about his teenage son, saying "pero es un buen niño: no se droga, no se emborracha, no anda con malos amigos". The other person told her "¿Y cuál es el mérito? Es lo menos que se espera de él, si así lo educaste." (No hope here. The behaviour of the boy is exactly what shall be expected from him.)


However, if we feel that there might be some ambiguity about the use of "esperar que", we will be likely to use an alternative construction that should be clear enough (or so we expect).

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

If the surgeon says "espero que todo salga bien en la operación", ....

Thanks for that. Your example is one where the overlap between 'hope' and 'expect' is sufficient to give a convincing explanation. If the surgeon says the above, you are interpeting what he says with no indication as to what he actually thinks. He might also be saying "I hope everything will go well in the operation tomorrow, (but I don't expect so, because the chances are slim.)" You have chosen an example where someone hopes and expects, because it is unlikely that the patient will expect but not hope.

The problem arises when somebody hopes something but they don't expect it. If the operation were to re-attach a severed head, the words of the surgeon would be interpreted differently (ignoring the logistical problem of the patient not being able to hear ).

I need to think about this.

[aleCcowaN]

Espero que ---> tengo la esperanza de que ...
Espero que ---> tengo la expectativa de que .../ creo que ha de ocurrir que

Both are equally used and only the context and the intonation would tell the difference. At least "espero a..." clearly means "I wait for ...". In order to avoid ambiguities, Spanish speakers use to say "espero que termine" (I hope it ends) and "estoy esperando (a) que termine" (I'm waiting, until it ends?/the end of it?/for it to end? -how would you say it?)

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN

(I'm waiting, until it ends?/the end of it?/for it to end? -how would you say it?)

...but without a comma.

[aleCcowaN]

Originally Posted by Perikles

...but without a comma.

Thank you!

You're right, I should have used ellipsis instead.