[Other] Japanese

[ookami]

お は よ う ご ざ い ま す Buenos Días (gozaimasu le agrega formalidad)
o ha yo u go za i ma su

I'm learning Japanese (I started recently) and I would like to know if there is someone learning it too or thinking about starting.

Little by little I'll put some information for the ones that are starting:

There are 3 alphabets:

Hiragana: It's value is only phonetic, as our alphabet. It has 46 characters and is the one used for Japanese words, particles, verbs, etc. (all that I'm writing in Japanese here is in Hiragana)

http://www.e.kth.se/~e96_dsa/www/nihongo/hiragana.gif

Katakana: It's value is only phonetic, as our alphabet. It has the same 46 characters as Hiragana, but with different writing. It is used for foreign words like: コンピュタ- konpyuta - computer

http://www.e.kth.se/~e96_dsa/www/nihongo/katakana.gif

Kanji: Chinese characters used only for expressing concepts (in Chinese they can be use phonetically). There are more than 10.000 kanjis, but the official ones you have to know to understand almost all the language and that are taught at schools are nearly 2000.

Some words: (I will only remark when i'm using katakana, if not, I'm using hiragana. Kanji never)

こ ん に ち は Buenas Tardes
ko n ni chi wa

こ ん ば ん は Buenas Noches
ko n ba n wa

お や す み な さ い Buenas Noches (que duermas bien)
o ya su mi na sa i - Nasai agrega formalidad.

さ よ う な ら Adios (formal)
sa yo u na ra

じゃ ね Chau
ja ne

バ イ バ イ Chau (esta en katakana, es una palabra extranjera)
ba i ba i


The phonetic is similar to Spanish, next time I will tell you.

Please correct my english errors!

[Jessica]

seems more complicated than Chinese....

[ookami]

Originally Posted by jchen

seems more complicated than Chinese....

From what i know, chinese is more complicated because it has more kanjis and the fonetical is difficult.
It only seems, but it's like other languages. The only difficult thing is to memorice 2000 kanjis and know how to write them correctly. What's left is like in any language once you have learn the Kanas (Hiragana and Katakana).

[EmpanadaRica]

Originally Posted by ookami

お は よ う ご ざ い ま す Buenos Días (gozaimasu le agrega formalidad)
o ha yo u go za i ma su

I'm learning Japanese (I started recently) and I would like to know if there is someone learning it too or thinking about starting.

It' s a language I would like to learn down the line, but there are a few others waiting first. I have a Brazilian acquaintance/friend who is studying Japanese too. I have only once ever watched a tv language course in Japanese and all I remember is (phonetic): ' Hajimemhashito' (How are you?), ' Itadakimasu' (enjoy your meal) and 'moshi moshi' (hello).

It sounds very interesting though! Thanks for sharing!!
3 alphabets... !! yikes..

Little by little I'll put some information for the ones that are starting:

There are 3 alphabets:

Hiragana: It's value is only phonetic, as our alphabet. It has 46 characters and is the one used for Japanese words, particles, verbs, etc. (all that I'm writing in Japanese here is in Hiragana)

http://www.e.kth.se/~e96_dsa/www/nihongo/hiragana.gif

Katakana: It's value is only phonetic, as our alphabet. It has the same 46 characters than as Hirgana, but with different writing. It is used for foreign words like: コンピュタ- konpyuta - computer

http://www.e.kth.se/~e96_dsa/www/nihongo/katakana.gif

Kanji: Chinese characters used only for expressing concepts (in Chinese they can be use phonetically). There are more than 10.000 kanjis, but the official ones you have to know to understand almost all the language and that are teached taught at schools are nearly/ almost 2000.

Some words: (I will only remark when I'm using katakana, if not, I'm using hiragana. Kanji never)

こ ん に ち わ Buenas Tardes
ko n ni chi wa

こ ん ば ん わ Buenas Noches
ko n ba n wa

お や す み な さ い Buenas Noches (que duermas bien)
o ya su mi na sa i - Nasai agrega formalidad.

さ よ う な ら Adios (formal)
sa yo u na ra

じゃ ね Chau
ja ne

バ イ バ イ Chau (esta en katakana, es una palabra extranjera)
ba i ba i


The phonetic is similar to Spanish, next time I will tell you (more).

Please correct my English errors (/errors in English)!

As per your request a few minor corrections, not many.
I believe phonetic is spelled with a 'ph' not an 'f' but maybe an English native speaker can comment on that.

Thanx for sharing, it's very interesting!!

[Jessica]

Originally Posted by ookami

From what i know, chinese is more complicated because it has more kanjis and the fonetical is difficult.
It only seems, but it's like other languages. The only difficult thing is to memorice 2000 kanjis and know how to write them correctly. What's left is like in any language once you have learn the Kanas (Hiragana and Katakana).

Hmm, but I'm Chinese, so that's probably why Japanese seems hard. I'm more used to Chinese

the Chinese language doesn't have an alphabet...

Originally Posted by EmpanadaRica

It' s a language I would like to learn down the line, but there are a few others waiting first. I have a Brazilian acquaintance/friend who is studying Japanese too. I have only once ever watched a tv language course in Japanese and all I remember is (phonetic): ' Hajimemhashito' (How are you?), ' Itadakimasu' (enjoy your meal) and 'moshi moshi' (hello).

It sounds very interesting though! Thanks for sharing!!
3 alphabets... !! yikes..



As per your request a few minor corrections, not many.
I believe phonetic is spelled with a 'ph' not an 'f' but maybe an English native speaker can comment on that.

Thanx for sharing, it's very interesting!!

yeah, phonetic is spelled with 'ph'

[ookami]

Thanks both and please continue correcting me if you can It's the only way i can improve.
Don't tell me Empanada that it isn't a lovely language to hear!

Some more common expressions:

ど う も あ り が と う ご ざ い ま す Muchas Gracias (de una manera formal)
do u mo a ri ga to u go za i ma su

ど う い た し ま し て De nada
do u i ta shi ma shi te

ご め ん な さ い Perdón (algo formal por el 'nasai')
go me n na sa i

す み ま せ ん Disculpe (formal)
su mi ma se n

い た だ き ま す *Saludos para antes de empezar a comer.
i ta da ki ma su

ご ち そ う さ ま で し た Gracias por la comida. (el deshita agrega formalidad)
go chi so u sa ma de shi ta

いっ て き ま す *Saludos para irse de un lugar, sería como: "¡Me voy!"
i t te ki ma su

いっ て い ら しゃ い *en respuesta al anterior, como: "¡Que te vaya bien!"
i t te i ra sha i

た だ い ま *Saludo cuando se llega a un lugar, como: "Ya llegue"
ta da i ma

お か え り な さ い *en respuesta al anterior, como: "Bienvenido"
o ka e ri na sa i

Nexy time: phonetic and first dialogue.

[EmpanadaRica]

Thanx jchen!

Originally Posted by ookami

Thanks both and please continue correcting me if you can It's the only way I can improve.
Don't tell me Empanada that it isn't a lovely language to hear!

Ok I will if it' s worth a correction. Sofar you're doing fine.
Yes it sounds lovely, definitely.. I agree. Very sweet in fact. But it'd be hard work learning it.
In fact before this I would love to learn either some more Greek or Turkish (or both) because they both sound very lovely as well - though Turkish isn't the easierst of languages either.

What made you decide to start learning Japanese by the way?

Some more common expressions:

ど う も あ り が と う ご ざ い ま す Muchas Gracias (de una manera formal)
do u mo a ri ga to u go za i ma su

So, noticeably 'masu' is often said at the end of a word. Do you know what it means, or is it a word that indicates politeness or a formal 'u' / 'usted' maybe?

ど う い た し ま し て De nada
do u i ta shi ma shi te

Twice 'shi' , after konnitchiwa (good night). The word 'i ta' also seems to
reappear in these constructions. Can you tell us some more what 'i ta' and 'chi' mean if you can translate those characters to a corresponding word or concept?

い た だ き ま す *Saludos para antes de empezar a comer.
i ta da ki ma su

Hey so I remembered it correctly It's been a few years but it sounded so charming I remembered it.

いっ て き ま す *Saludos para irse de un lugar, sería como: "¡Me voy!"
i t te ki ma su

So the only big difference between thwese two is 't' instead of 'ta' and 'da' instead of 'te' ? So I suppose those words then signify the actual action that is taking place (Enjoy the meal, versus, I am going?). Or is that reasoning too simple and should other things be taken into consideration as well?

いっ て い ら しゃ い *en respuesta al anterior, como: "¡Que te vaya bien!"
i t te i ra sha i

た だ い ま *Saludo cuando se llega a un lugar, como: "Ya llegue"
ta da i ma

So 't te' is about going I assume (twice in two constructions about going) and 'ta da' ?
Are te and ta opposite (as in 'away' and 'to' movements?).
Is there assimilation in Japanese? I.e. if you have 'da', 'te' becomes 'ta' as well, or is this not done?

Nexy time: phonetic and first dialogue.

Can I ask you, what does your nickname mean? I assume it is Japanese too?

[ookami]

Originally Posted by EmpanadaRica

What made you decide to start learning Japanese by the way?

I love their culture since childhood. And i like a lot their anime and literature. Music too.

So, noticeably 'masu' is often said at the end of a word. Do you know what it means, or is it a word that indicates politeness or a formal 'u' / 'usted' maybe?

It indicates politeness. You almost always finish your verbs with "masu", if not, is a too familiar conversation or badmanner. nomimasu - beber - drink
It has other meanings but at this moment is to difficult to explain.

Twice 'shi' , after konnitchiwa (good night). The word 'i ta' also seems to
reappear in these constructions. Can you tell us some more what 'i ta' and 'chi' mean if you can translate those characters to a corresponding word or concept?

konnichiwa is "Good Afternoon"

It's not a too logical language as others. Sentences aren't exact and depend alot of context. It's imposible to translate literary because you have always many options.
You can just find (this is an invented word) mikitse and mikitso and mikitsa and "kit" is nothing than 3 more letters. 'ita' is in alot of words that haven't any conection.

So the only big difference between thwese two is 't' instead of 'ta' and 'da' instead of 'te' ? So I suppose those words then signify the actual action that is taking place (Enjoy the meal, versus, I am going?). Or is that reasoning too simple and should other things be taken into consideration as well?

In this case maybe you can analice "tadaima" ('da' means something, very difficult to explain for me without examples, 'ima' means ahora-now) but you can't do that in all the words or at least it isn't to helpfull while learning. In spanish: carpeta and escopeta have "peta" and that doesn't mean anything especial. It's almost the same here.

So 't te' is about going I assume (twice in two constructions about going) and 'ta da' ?
Are te and ta opposite (as in 'away' and 'to' movements?).
Is there assimilation in Japanese? I.e. if you have 'da', 'te' becomes 'ta' as well, or is this not done?

No, they aren't opposite and. You have assimilation in all languages i think, but japanese is a little bit different to analice. You need to advanced a little more to see it. Maybe after I put here some dialogues.

That little tsu: "っ" means that you make like a pause when saying the next letter: "i..ttekimasu" I think you need to listen to understand correctly.
Examples:

い っ て き ま す
i t te ki ma su

ざ っ し (revista)
za s shi

Just phonetic.

I have tried french, portuguese and germán and you can understand almost all (maybe not to clear) at the beggining. But with Japanese you have to advanced with one eye for some time. And i still have one eye close.

Can I ask you, what does your nickname mean? I assume it is Japanese too?

kami es dios
kami es cabello
kami es pelo
ookami es lobo -> wolf

Thanks for your participation. Sorry if I can't be of much help on those questions.

[Jessica]

Originally Posted by ookami

Thanks both and please continue correcting me if you can It's the only way i can improve.
Don't tell me Empanada that it isn't a lovely language to hear!

Some more common expressions:

ど う も あ り が と う ご ざ い ま す Muchas Gracias (de una manera formal)
do u mo a ri ga to u go za i ma su

ど う い た し ま し て De nada
do u i ta shi ma shi te

ご め ん な さ い Perdón (algo formal por el 'nasai')
go me n na sa i

す み ま せ ん Disculpe (formal)
su mi ma se n

い た だ き ま す *Saludos para antes de empezar a comer.
i ta da ki ma su

ご ち そ う さ ま で し た Gracias por la comida. (el deshita agrega formalidad)
go chi so u sa ma de shi ta

いっ て き ま す *Saludos para irse de un lugar, sería como: "¡Me voy!"
i t te ki ma su

いっ て い ら しゃ い *en respuesta al anterior, como: "¡Que te vaya bien!"
i t te i ra sha i

た だ い ま *Saludo cuando se llega a un lugar, como: "Ya llegue"
ta da i ma

お か え り な さ い *en respuesta al anterior, como: "Bienvenido"
o ka e ri na sa i

Nexy time: phonetic and first dialogue.

I forgot - does Japanese have tones? Chinese has tones. 4 of them, well in Mandarin

[brute]

Originally Posted by jchen

I forgot - does Japanese have tones? Chinese has tones. 4 of them, well in Mandarin

ko n ba n wa mi na sa n.
I studied Japanese for almost a year at a local school about 10 years ago, but I have now forgotten most of it.
Japanese is not a tonal language. (It is a bit like French in that respect.) The voice does not rise and fall in pitch like in other languages.
They have yet another "alphabet" called romaji, which is a European transliteration of the 46 sounds of two kana systems. It is used as a means of teaching communicating with users of the latin or roman alphabet. The most popular version is called he bo n, named after its inventor (Hepburn)

The alphabets do not relate to individual letters, but to just 46 permissible syllables. Apart from the vowels (aieou) and n, all the other symbols of this so-called syllabary are a consonant+vowel combination. Romanji is a phonetic system pronounced like Italian.
Because the language has so few sounds, it is rich in ambiguity and puns.


The Kanji characters are the same as Chinese, of which a well educated Japanese would know and use about 2000. They are not phonetic. Each character will normally have 2 entirely different meanings, which adds to the ambiguity. The most useful kana for us is Katakana (the spikey alphabet), which is usually is close to an English word.
Like in Spanish V and B sound the same. L sounds like an R, which leads to words such as "te re bi" for televi(sion)

The writing systems are the hardest part of this language, as grammar is relatively simple. Fascinating!

[sosia]

I, like brute, studied some japanese years ago (1 year). Now I have forgotten everything

[ookami]

It's common for people to study one year Japanese and leave?
I (and two friends) did the same a few years ago (now I started again)

[Jessica]

Originally Posted by brute

ko n ba n wa mi na sa n.
I studied Japanese for almost a year at a local school about 10 years ago, but I have now forgotten most of it.
Japanese is not a tonal language. (It is a bit like French in that respect.) The voice does not rise and fall in pitch like in other languages.
They have yet another "alphabet" called romaji, which is a European transliteration of the 46 sounds of two kana systems. It is used as a means of teaching communicating with users of the latin or roman alphabet. The most popular version is called he bo n, named after its inventor (Hepburn)

The alphabets do not relate to individual letters, but to just 46 permissible syllables. Apart from the vowels (aieou) and n, all the other symbols of this so-called syllabary are a consonant+vowel combination. Romanji is a phonetic system pronounced like Italian.
Because the language has so few sounds, it is rich in ambiguity and puns.


The Kanji characters are the same as Chinese, of which a well educated Japanese would know and use about 2000. They are not phonetic. Each character will normally have 2 entirely different meanings, which adds to the ambiguity. The most useful kana for us is Katakana (the spikey alphabet), which is usually is close to an English word.
Like in Spanish V and B sound the same. L sounds like an R, which leads to words such as "te re bi" for televi(sion)

The writing systems are the hardest part of this language, as grammar is relatively simple. Fascinating!

I knew it.

[bobjenkins]

Hola ayer empecé a aprender japonés, querría aprender las kanjis, porque son bonitas! Siempre las he vistO en las películas. Estoy triste que sean muy complicadas, las otras letras me parecen una poca más fácil.

¡Qué linda!


¡¿cómo se lo recuerda?!

[ookami]

But you can't start learning that!

First Hiragana, then Katakana, then some gramatic and then kanjis with an order of difficult because the more complex kanjis are made from simplier ones. The kanji you wrote there is made from many parts/radicals. Once you know the 300++ radicals is easier. Download "kanji gold", is a free software to learn them. You have to start with Grade 1 kanjis, they are 90. And you have to learn how to write them in the correct order. But this is not the time to learn kanjis! you can start looking at the firsts 90 kanjis, but Kanas are the first step.

I have just started with kanjis. Slowly.

[bobjenkins]

Originally Posted by ookami

But you can't start learning that!

First Hiragana, then Katakana, then some gramatic and then kanjis with an order of difficult because the more complex kanjis are made from simplier ones. The kanji you wrote there is made from many parts/radicals. Once you know the 300++ radicals is easier. Download "kanji gold", is a free software to learn them. You have to start with Grade 1 kanjis, they are 90. And you have to learn how to write them in the correct order. But this is not the time to learn kanjis! you can start looking at the firsts 90 kanjis, but Kanas are the first step.

I have just started with kanjis. Slowly.

GRacias por el consejo! Tarde voy a aprender un poco de las Hiraganas

[brute]

Originally Posted by bobjenkins

GRacias por el consejo! Tarde voy a aprender un poco de las Hiraganas

I learned Katakana first. You can often make sense of Katakana words if you read them out loud. They usually sound something like an English word. You need to understand real Japanese to make sense of Hirugana. However you will make rapid progress in speaking Japanese by using Romaji (Roman script Hepburn).

Perhaps you can decypher these words,written in Hepburn
guroubarizeeshyon, oudoburu, Itaria, Osuturaria, Rosanzerusu

Hidden Text: Show/Hide

Click to show hidden text - Da click para revelar el texto oculto

globalisation ,hor d'oevres, Italy, Australia and CALIFORNIA

When you start learning Kanji, learn the useful ones first, such as place names and common street signs. Also, each Kanji usually has two totally different interpretations or readings.

[ookami]

But if you start learning Katakana, when you know it, you can only start reading and writing some objects/places/names,... vocabulary.
If you learn Hiragana, you can start learning the grammar, making sentences and reading almost all things. The difficulty is the same because we are talking about memorizing symbols and not the vocabulary.
Iif we think about it, you can learn the two at the same time making some more effort. They are very alike. After that you start learning grammar and eventually, when you want, learn some kanjis.

-----------

I don't recomend starting learning kanji by studying the useful ones. There are Grades for learning kanjis (as japanese teach them in school and highschool) Grade I, II, etc. If you study them in order I belive is better because more complex kanjis (that are popular ones too) use simplier ones in their composition, so if you know the easyest kanjis, the other are easier.

And the grades are well think, in Grade I you learn for example: tree, wood, air, fire, water, moon, sun, mounth, day, gold, left, right, up, under, in, out, big, small, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 100, 1000, 10000, etc.

[Jessica]

I believe that the characters of the numbers in Japanese is same as the ones in Chinese, but their "pin yin" or whatever is different?

[ookami]

Yes, they are the same. Almost all Japanese kanjis are from China. You have two phonetical ways to read a kanji in Japanese, the Chinese(on'yomi) way and the Japanese(kun'yomi) way. (when you use a kanji alone, you read it in kun'yomi, when you use it combined with another, you read in on'yomi)

一 here it is pronunced ichi (kun'yomi, Japanese way). It means one.
一人 here 一 is pronunced hito (on'yomi, Chinese way, it means the same as before) because it is combined with another kanji: 人 that here is pronunced as ri, acting as a counter for people. So it is hito(one)ri(counter for people) -> hitori, that means alone.