Pronouncing all "Rs" as "Ds"

[wafflestomp]

I learned this from a Spanish teacher a few days ago... I am a little hesitant to trust what she says because of a few issues (she taught the conjugation of the vosotros subjunctive entirely wrong and actually came in the next day and apologized, she also used the word "nieta" for "niece") so as you could probably figure I am hesitant about this. From some practice with Rosetta Stone's pronunciation checks, it seems to always work. For example, pronouncing "Para" as "pahdaa" or "encimera" as "encimedda", but I just want to know if this is something you really want to rely on and if it is true or not.

[Rusty]

The American English pronunciation of 'd' is a far cry from the Spanish 'r', when it appears between vowels. We do make the right sound in American English, so don't despair.

The 'double d' in 'cheddar', or the 'double t' in 'better', can be used for our example.
Listen carefully to yourself as you say, 'This cheddar is better,' over and over. The double consonants should sound exactly alike. In fact, except for the initial consonant sound in each word, both 'cheddar' and 'better' should sound exactly alike in normal speech. Now, with the 'normal speech' sound pattern established, let's focus on just 'cheddar' and 'better', said back-to-back. After repeating them over and over (making sure that middle consonant sound is identical), remove the final 'r' sounds. Say the words over and over. Remove 'chedda'; just say 'betta' over and over. Remove the 'b'. Say it over and over. This is the exact pronunciation of the Spanish word 'era'. It is how the final syllable of encimera is pronounced. Exchange the initial vowel only to correctly pronounce 'ara'. Add the initial consonant 'p', with no plosive sound (as is done in English). That is the correct pronunciation of 'para'.

If you're still not convinced that you've learned it correctly, a few native speakers have included MP3s of how words are pronounced in a few different threads. I can provide you a couple of links, if desired.

[Perikles]

I'm being thick here. I can't quite see why you need the two words better and cheddar for this exercise. (Difficult anyway for me, because for me the two are completely different vowel sounds.) It seems as though you need to practice saying better until it sounds like cheddar, then use it for para. In which case why bother with better at all? I'm obviously missing something. Could you send me the links you mention?

[laepelba]

Well, in American English, better and cheddar are pronounced almost exactly the same. They could definitely be used to rhyme in a poem. The suggestion that I've received from several native English-speakers who also speak Spanish is to look at words with a double "tt" in the middle like "better" or "butter" and that is similar to the Spanish "d" that Rusty is talking about. I see that Wafflestomp is from Long Island, and thus probably pronounces these words the same as Rusty & I.

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by laepelba

Well, in American English, better and cheddar are pronounced almost exactly the same. They could definitely be used to rhyme in a poem.

Sure, I'm not disputing this pronunciation. What puzzles me is that if they sound the same, then why use the two words in an effort to pronounce the Spanish 'r'?

[irmamar]

To my ears, American pronunciation of "better" sounds like Spanish 'r' (simple). I'm not sure about "cheddar".

[Rusty]

The reason I give two different words to begin with is to ensure that the native American English speaker is focusing on the right consonant sound. In British English, the double consonant of each of these words has a unique pronunciation. This can also occur in American English. However, when both words are presented to a native speaker of American English, and mention is made that the double consonants found in both words are pronounced exactly the same, the student can easily isolate the correct consonant sound, when the sentence is repeated over and over. This is because it is very natural for a speaker of American English to morph these two double consonants into a consonant that is indistinguishable.

The Spanish 'r' (simple) doesn't sound like the American English 'd'. Nor does it sound like the American English 't'. But it does sound like the American English 'dd' or 'tt' when the words containing these letters are spoken in a normal conversation. In order to force the natural, normal-conversation sound of these two indistinguishable consonants, I present a sentence that contains them both and ask the student to make them sound the same. When they sound the same in American English, the student is pronouncing the Spanish 'r'.

[pjt33]

Originally Posted by Rusty

... Listen carefully to yourself as you say, 'This cheddar is better,' over and over. The double consonants should sound exactly alike. ...

Really? One's voiced and the other isn't, unless you have a merger.

... Add the initial consonant 'p', with no plosive sound ...

What's left? That consonant is an unvoiced bilabial plosive.

[chileno]

I coincide with Rusty in all but one point.

The American English (and I guess the BrE as well) when pronounced quickly it does sound like the Spanish r.

What is more, if an American person is told to pronounce in Spanish the word "todo (all/everything)" the person will sound in Spanish as saying TORO(u) (bull)

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by Rusty

The Spanish 'r' (simple) doesn't sound like the American English 'd'. Nor does it sound like the American English 't'. But it does sound like the American English 'dd' or 'tt' when the words containing these letters are spoken in a normal conversation.

Sorry for making you spell all this out. One reason for my perplexity is that I didn't realise there was a difference between the American English 't', 'd', 'dd' and 'tt' which all sound the same to me. Can you give me those audio links?

[Rusty]

The "audio links" were for the OP. They are the MP3s of native Spanish speakers one can find here in the forums. A few of them come with the written words, as well.

If you look at the pronunciations of 'better' and 'cheddar' in an American English online dictionary, or if you listen to those words in a pronouncing dictionary, the 'dd' and 'tt' will have distinct sounds - a 'd' and a 't', respectively. However, I seldom hear any native American English speakers that pronounce those words that way in normal conversation. And if both words appear in the same sentence, the double consonants will sound the same. The sound we utter is neither 'd' or 't'. It is the Spanish 'r'.

Chileno brings up an interesting point. When an American English speaker is learning Spanish, 'todo' will sound like 'toro' to the hispanohablante. This is because, in normal conversation, we don't pronounce the intervocal 'd' and 't' as you would think. We almost always say the Spanish 'r' sound instead.

[irmamar]

So, in a word like 'adore', for instance, you would pronounce "d" as Spanish "r", wouldn't you?

[Awaken]

Originally Posted by irmamar

So, in a word like 'adore', for instance, you would pronounce "d" as Spanish "r", wouldn't you?

Not sure about this one. Adore is pronounced with a strong 'd' in my opinion. "A Door" versus a "dd" like in cheddar. Of course we are talking about slight differences that I can imagine would be difficult for non-native speakers.
Pronunciation from dictionary.com
[uh-dawr, uh-dohr] - Personally uh-dawr sounds wrong to me.
[ched-er]

Because the 'd' is at the end of the syllable, it is a little weaker. Again, these are all subtleties of the language. I'm not a language expert though, so I would defer to someone like Rusty in these situations who knows both languages much better than I do.

Pronunciations below are in English words that equal the sounds vs. true pronunciation guides:
When I say "todo" [toe doe] in Spanish, they hear it as "tore oh"?

[chileno]

Originally Posted by irmamar

So, in a word like 'adore', for instance, you would pronounce "d" as Spanish "r", wouldn't you?

No, not that one.

Algo que les digo a mis estudiantes para que comienzen a practicar es que la

TH = como la Z (española) o la D

D= D o R

No se como pronuncias las palabras dedo o dado en castellano, pero yo las pronuncio así:

La primera d con la lengua justo detrás de los dientes y la segunda con la lengua entre los dientes.

TH cuando suena como D es con la lengua entre los dientes

D cuando suena como R pronunciada rápida es con la lengua detrás de los dientes.



Ok PJT, you name them, 'cause I forgot all that, long time ago.

[JPablo]

Well, in colloquial speech, "todo" sounds to me more like "toe doe" (with a very soft "d" that can sound almost like "toe 'oe" (i.e., in a very colloquial way of talking "todo" just becomes "to'o".

I found this song "eres todo para mí", where the singers pronounces "todo" in a correct Spanish... (it's the first time I see/hear this singer... but while she is not or does not sound exactly like a native, her diction is decent/standard enough to put her as a clear example...)

[chileno]

Originally Posted by JPablo

Well, in colloquial speech, "todo" sounds to me more like "toe doe" (with a very soft "d" that can sound almost like "toe 'oe" (i.e., in a very colloquial way of talking "todo" just becomes "to'o".

I found this song "eres todo para mí", where the singers pronounces "todo" in a correct Spanish... (it's the first time I see/hear this singer... but while she is not or does not sound exactly like a native, her diction is decent/standard enough to put her as a clear example...)

Correcto. Cuando un americano pronuncia despacio "todo" se escuchará como "tou dou"

Despacio, queriendo decir pronunciar bien.

[Rusty]

Boy, did I open a can of worms, or what?

I specifically chose words and narrative that would make sense to a native American English speaker. No offense meant, but others will have a difficult time understanding why I said what I said.
Adore is pronounced with a hard 'd', as Awaken wrote. I never meant to say that we pronounce American English intervocal 'd' consonants like the Spanish 'r'. I was only agreeing that when a new student of Spanish is first trying to pronounce the Spanish word 'todo', many sound like they are saying 'tou rou', as chileno pointed out. He also correctly points out that we will say 'tou dou' if we enunciate the consonant clearly. For example, the English 'to-do' is always pronounced with a hard 'd'.

Sorry about any confusion I might have caused. I was only trying to help wafflestomp. If he can say 'better cheddar' over and over until he hears the same middle consonant in each word, then drop the final r's and say 'bette chedda' over and over (the final vowel sounds are identical in sound), and then drop the leading consonant sounds and say 'ette edda' over and over, he'll be saying 'era era' in Spanish.

[irmamar]

I've been thinking of a word I had ever heard with a "d" which sounds like a "r" to my ears, and I've found it: everybody. Maybe the reason is that intervocalic "d" is pronounced as Spanish "r" in unstressed syllables. My knowledge of pronunciation of American English (or another English accent either ) is not great. So, you can think of another words with this feature.

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by irmamar

I've been thinking of a word I had ever heard with a "d" which sounds like a "r" to my ears, and I've found it: everybody. Maybe the reason is that intervocalic "d" is pronounced as Spanish "r" in unstressed syllables. My knowledge of pronunciation of American English (or another English accent either ) is not great. So, you can think of another words with this feature.

This thread is persuading me never to try another spoken word of Spanish ever again. The 'd' in everybody is, was and always will be to me a 'd' sound, indistinguishable from dog. I don't see (hear) the connection between that and any kind of 'r' sound, unless every 'r' is suppressed to the point of being silent.

[irmamar]

Watch this video. They write "d", but it sounds "r" ears:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdOgNXwCUYE