Comprehending Speech

[chileno]

Originally Posted by Elaina

Yeah right!

Yeah right, I don't know grammar or you don't understand me?

[Elaina]

Originally Posted by chileno

Yeah right, I don't know grammar or you don't understand me?

I'm sure you know some grammar.......and you know darn well I understand you......

[chileno]

Originally Posted by Elaina

I'm sure you know some grammar.......and you know darn well I understand you......

I know some grammar. How much is some. I know the name adverbio I really do not know what it really is.

I have proved that I do not know much Spanish grammar and much less English grammar.

According to some people here and some other places, I shouldn't be able to do what I am doing right now, and much less being understood!

I was born in Chile, I came to the US little after my 25th birthday in 1979, I accomplished my acquiring of the English language in about a year, and it took me, say one more year to almost completely translate my Spanish vocabulary to English. I thought of getting into college and getting English grammar, but through those two first years of being in the country I met several people who would say it was impossible to do what I did without knowing grammar, so I decided not to take English grammar ever. And here I am explaining the same thing...over and over, although it's a bit different now. i have internet and the audience is wider. :-)

Now I get dizzy with grammar terms.

Some other day I will translate this to Spanish.

[bobjenkins]

To be considered to know grammar do you have to know all the names and rules associated with the language, "noun, verb, subjuntive, ect." or do you have just know how to use them properly?

Ex if someone said to you. I know that the words in Spanish end in "o" when your talking about yourself
hablo
escucho
ect.

¿Dirías que esa persona sabe gramática ? Pienso que es una pregunta que me interesa

[irmamar]

Un nativo en un idioma sabe las normas gramaticales de su lengua sin necesidad de estudiar gramática, simplemente las ha interiorizado en su aprendizaje. Una lengua es un sistema de signos, es un código que emisor y receptor conocen. Si no conoces el código, no podrás comunicarte. Pero dentro del código no sólo entra el vocabulario, sino muchas más cosas. Tal vez Chileno haya podido memorizar e interiorizar su nueva lengua, pero creo que es más fácil conocer las normas para crear palabras que aprenderse todas las palabras.

Por ejemplo, si estudio los verbos en español, salvo los irregulares, sé que si conozco el presente de indicativo de la primera conjugación, podré construir, tan solo conociendo el infinitivo, todos los demás presentes de todos los verbos regulares. En caso contrario, tendría que estudiarme todas las formas del presente de indicativo de toooodos los verbos. De ahí que, intrínsecamente, Chileno conoce la gramática inglesa, aunque no quiera reconocerlo. Si no la conociera, no podría crear derivados palabras a partir de la raíz, ni tampoco crear una nueva frase porque no conocería la sintaxis inglesa, etc.

[chileno]

Originally Posted by irmamar

Un nativo en un idioma sabe las normas gramaticales de su lengua sin necesidad de estudiar gramática, simplemente las ha interiorizado en su aprendizaje. Una lengua es un sistema de signos, es un código que emisor y receptor conocen. Si no conoces el código, no podrás comunicarte. Pero dentro del código no sólo entra el vocabulario, sino muchas más cosas. Tal vez Chileno haya podido memorizar e interiorizar su nueva lengua, pero creo que es más fácil conocer las normas para crear palabras que aprenderse todas las palabras.

Por ejemplo, si estudio los verbos en español, salvo los irregulares, sé que si conozco el presente de indicativo de la primera conjugación, podré construir, tan solo conociendo el infinitivo, todos los demás presentes de todos los verbos regulares. En caso contrario, tendría que estudiarme todas las formas del presente de indicativo de toooodos los verbos. De ahí que, intrínsecamente, Chileno conoce la gramática inglesa, aunque no quiera reconocerlo. Si no la conociera, no podría crear derivados palabras a partir de la raíz, ni tampoco crear una nueva frase porque no conocería la sintaxis inglesa, etc.

In part true.

That's why I recommend transcribing a novel. It will get you "accustomed" to writing and reading in the language.

[irmamar]

Originally Posted by chileno

In part true.

That's why I recommend transcribing a novel. It will get you "accustomed" to writing and reading in the language.

Tú eres muy listo, Chileno . I guess I need more than just a novel (two hundred, maybe?)

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by FrannyCakes

Hola,

How do you develop the skills needed to comprehend speech?

Gracias.

We can argue about intuitive understanding of language usage vs. studying grammar and vocabulary all day long. (We have previously, haven't we?) I know that Chileno doesn't agree with me on this point, but I believe that we all learn differently, and some of us need to take one angle on language learning, and others of us need a different angle.

Having said that, I think that what I'm hearing in the question from FrannyCakes is also about understanding Spanish, spoken as it is spoken by a native speaker at a native speaker's pace. One cannot do that unless you actually practice LISTENING.

Some of us don't have access to regular listening to spoken Spanish. Immersion is obviously the best option, but might not be practical for some of us who are home owners with jobs and who can't just take off for a long period of time to live in a foreign country.

Given that, I will repeat something here that I have posted on several other threads in this forum. Someone (here) pointed me out to these videos, posted by the University of Texas.

The link is: http://www.laits.utexas.edu/spe/index.html

Each video is quite short, and each comes with a transcript of the spoken Spanish. There are MANY videos, and they are grouped by topic, and from the very most basic and progressing through much more difficult material. Within each group of videos (I think the groups are 5-6 videos), they have Spanish speakers from different countries with different accents speaking on the same given topic.

So, for example, they may have a group on giving directions. Within that group of videos, they may have speakers from Mexico, Peru, Spain, and Chile. The speakers are NOT reading from prepared texts. They are asked to speak on a certain topic, and then they just talk. The transcripts of their monologues are made later.

I have found it EXTREMELY helpful to listen to these videos several times each: first without the transcript, to try to see how much I understand ... second (and sometimes third and/or fourth....) WITH the transcript to check myself to see if I really did understand everything correctly.

I HIGHLY recommend these videos!!

[CrOtALiTo]

Originally Posted by irmamar

Maybe some grammar would help you

Yes I believe the same.

[CrOtALiTo]

Originally Posted by irmamar

Both

(my dear Crotalito will be angry. Sorry )

I don't bothering me that, never I liked the Spanish class.

And well just I haven't time for the practice in grammatic.

[chileno]

Originally Posted by bobjenkins

To be considered to know grammar do you have to know all the names and rules associated with the language, "noun, verb, subjuntive, ect." or do you have just know how to use them properly?

Ex if someone said to you. I know that the words in Spanish end in "o" when your talking about yourself
hablo
escucho
ect.

¿Dirías que esa persona sabe gramática ? Pienso que es una pregunta que me interesa

I am sorry I dismissed your question as answered by some of what irmamar answered.

My mom taught me not answer a question with a question, but in this case is justified.

What happens with person who does not know how to read or write but speaks the language?

hmmm?

I require for my system to work that the person at least can read and write. That's the minimum I require because I am not a teacher.

[CrOtALiTo]

Originally Posted by chileno

I am sorry I dismissed your question as answered by some of what irmamar answered.

My mom taught me not answer a question with a question, but in this case is justified.

What happens with person who does not know how to read or write but speaks the language?

hmmm?

I require for my system to work that the person at least can read and write. That's the minimum I require because I am not a teacher.

Of course, really you are right, the education of your mother I guess that was special.

[irmamar]

¿Qué hay de malo en contestar una pregunta con otra?

Hay juegos con esto y también se usa en psicología.

[chileno]

Originally Posted by irmamar

¿Qué hay de malo en contestar una pregunta con otra?

Hay juegos con esto y también se usa en psicología.

¿En España no les enseñan de que es de mala educación contestar con una pregunta?

En Chile la mamá de uno se cansa de decir esto mismo.

Creo que aquí en EEUU también se dice. Ya no estoy seguro de nada.

Ah, y se usa mucho en cuanto a que un niño adulto cuestiona órdenes.

O sea, a una orden dada, preguntan en vez de acatar.

[bobjenkins]

Originally Posted by chileno

I am sorry I dismissed your question as answered by some of what irmamar answered.

My mom taught me not answer a question with a question, but in this case it is justified.

What happens with person who does not know how to read or write but speaks the language?
No sé , una buena pregunta repuesta por una otra buena pregunta. Pienso que la mayor de la gente relata la gramática con poder escribir y leer
hmmm?

I require for my system to work that the person at least can read and write. That's the minimum I require because I am not a teacher.

''''''''''''''

[irmamar]

Originally Posted by chileno

¿En España no les enseñan de que es de mala educación contestar con una pregunta?

No, ¿por qué?

En Chile la mamá de uno se cansa de decir esto mismo.

Creo que aquí en EEUU también se dice. Ya no estoy seguro de nada.

Es que estáis muy "americanizados".

Ah, y se usa mucho en cuanto a que un niño adulto cuestiona órdenes.

O sea, a una orden dada, preguntan en vez de acatar.

Aquí los niños preguntan y los mayores contestamos... si podemos

[chileno]

Originally Posted by irmamar

Aquí los niños preguntan y los mayores contestamos... si podemos

Eso es otra cosa. yo estoy hablando de esto.

Ojalá puedas entender bien el acento y los demás también...



En todo caso es buen ejercicio para los que están aprendiendo a escuchar español, en este caso de Chile.

[CarmenCarmona]

Originally Posted by Perikles

1) If you are less than 6 months old, don't worry about it.
2) If older, it involves a lot of hard work learning vocabulary and as much grammar as you can.

Originally Posted by tacuba

I respectfully disagree.

On the one hand, according to research findings in the area of age-related differences and following the headings under which they were grouped by Manchón, the level of final attainment in L2 learning in naturalistic settings seems to be affected by the age of starting (which determines the levels of accuracy achieved, particularly in pronunciation).

A biological/neurological explanation was provided for this finding by Penfield and Roberts, which corresponds to ‘The Critical Period Hypothesis’. It posits that some abilities needed for the acquisition of pronunciation are available only from early childhood up to the onset of puberty, given that those brain functions change as a result of the ageing process.

However, this biological hypothesis is not a ‘satisfactory explanation’ providing that language acquisition is not all about pronunciation and also that there can be found cases where very early L2 starters do not perform as native speakers or even late starters who have a native-like accent.

On the other hand, the level of final attainment in L2 learning in naturalistic settings also seems to be affected by the number of years’ exposure (which contributes to the overall proficiency of learners).

This has been attributed to motivational and affective explanations for adults and infants, respectively. Furthermore, this finding also seems to go hand in hand with the environmental context to account for children’s superiority in SLA. The previous mentioned exceptional late starters have also been reported to have a great efficiency at obtaining appropriately tuned input (especially in educational settings), apart from their motivation.

Finally, the rate of development is affected by the starting age, ‘undisputedly’ as the quotation posits, in both naturalistic and classroom settings. As regards grammatical development and vocabulary acquisition, older learners progress more rapidly in the beginning while younger ones’ rate of development is better in the long term.

Both findings might be explained by a ‘Cognitively-based Critical Period Hypothesis’, which claims that language acquisition is both a linguistic and a cognitive task. Therefore, Krashen and Rosanski state that puberty is the cognitive stage of formal operations, which entails a metalinguistic awareness in input processing that blocks the natural process of SLA.

Nevertheless, there are other opinions against these claims, given that adults’ greater cognitive maturity and memory explain why some aspects of L2 learning are easier for them. That is the reason why they appear to be superior in both rate of development and final attainment in foreign language contexts. Also, older learners’ and younger learners’ rate of development may be explained by an environmental and by an affective/motivational perspective, respectively.

In conclusion, it is impossible to account for the research findings from the perspective of only one theoretical explanation, which stems from the difficulty in comparing different studies concerning the large number of differences in the subject population, method and statistical treatment.

You guys understand? haha

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by CarmenCarmona

Therefore, Krashen and Rosanski state that puberty is the cognitive stage of formal operations, which entails a metalinguistic awareness in input processing that blocks the natural process of SLA.

Any idiot could have told them that.

[CarmenCarmona]

Originally Posted by chileno

I was born in Chile, I came to the US little after my 25th birthday in 1979, I accomplished my acquiring of the English language in about a year, and it took me, say one more year to almost completely translate my Spanish vocabulary to English.

I believe that both first and second language acquisition are never completely accomplished... at least in terms of vocabulary... (not to talk about acquiring an L2 in two years time!)

Originally Posted by Perikles

Any idiot could have told them that.

haha well, everything has to be said!