The Spanish Civil War of 1936-1939

[Villa]

Just wondering if anybody knows about the Spanish Civil War of 1936-1939. I took a class in Spanish History and my teacher was very passionate about this topic. Germany and Italy supported the conservatives while Mexico and Russia supported the progressives. Almost 400,000 people died in this war.

Unlike the United States and major Latin American governments such as the ABC Powers and Peru, the Mexican government supported the Republicans/progressives. Mexico refused to follow the French-British non-intervention proposals, and furnishing $2,000,000 in aid and material assistance, which included 20,000 rifles and 20 million cartridges.
Mexico's most important contributions to the Spanish Republic was its diplomatic help, as well as the sanctuary the nation arranged for Republican Spanish refugees, including Spanish intellectuals and orphaned children from Republican families. Some 50,000 took refuge, primarily in Mexico City, accompanied by $300 million in various treasures still owned by the progressives.

Mussolini's Italy sent some 60,000 Italian soldiers to fight against the progressives. They didn't do too well.

Germany used Spain as a testing grounds for their war machine. Germany then used this training during WWII that took place shortly after the Spanish Civil War.

The Sun Also Rises is one of Ernest Hemingway’s masterpieces and it is a story of the Spanish Civil War. Ernest Hemingway spent a lot of time in Spain and Cuba.

Do you know who won the Spanish Civil War?

[poli]

Spain was the first and only enduring fascist victory in Europe. While the subject of the civil war remains a hot topic in Spain, what can't be denied is the exodus or death of creative people who lived in Spain prior to the war. Lorca, Buñuel, Picasso, Dalí, Miró among others had to leave because artistic expression was discouraged. A country of the avant garde became a country of the cursilería. Religious piety and hypocracy had full reign similar but not as dreadful as what in currently going on in the Middle East. Spanish languages other than Castillian were disouraged and forbidden to be published.

Franco, the Spain's fascist leader, ruled Spain from the mid-1930's through most of the 1970's. Under his repressive regime some good things happened such as economic prosperity that resulted in a rise of the middle class without the benefit of US aid that countries to the north of Spain recieved. The country gained a reputation for being old-fashioned and untouched by revolutionary 1960's .The police state was repressive, but not quite a horrific as others. Nevertheless people disappeared, and freedom of expression was discouraged. Some Spaniards praise Franco and are nostalgic for the more homogenious society that resulted under Franco's rule.

[JPablo]

Hubo en España una guerra que, como todas las guerras, la ganara quien ganara, la perdieron los poetas...

If you see "Pan's Labyrinth" (El Laberinto del Fauno), (an excellent film), you could see a bit of "who won that war".

While the "image" of Franco is "very bad", he was "smart" enough to "disconnect" from Hitler and Mussolini...

My grandfather was in prison for several years, once Franco won the war... my dad fought on the Republican side (the "losers") when he was about 17 years old... then he had to "serve" under the Nationalist Army, for 3 years, to make sure he was indoctrinated in the spirit of the "new" regime...

But one cannot be Manichean on this subject... José María Gironella has three big tomes, "Los cipreses creen en Dios" "Un millón de muertos" and "Ha estallado la paz", (which were in my dad's library, but I never read...) These volumes deal with the pre-war, the war and the post-war... And reportedly, although published during the Franco regime, these are rather "objective"...

Anyhow... a lot has been written about the subject...

Like Antonio Machado wrote, "¡Señor! La guerra es mala y bárbara; la guerra odiada por las madres, las almas entigrece; mientras la guerra pasa, ¿quién sembrará la tierra?"

He had to leave Spain to be buried in the South of France...

At any rate, I tend to agree with the viewpoints Arturo Pérez Reverte expresses in his "Patente de Corso" writings...

One of these I link here...
La guerra civil que perdió Bambi

(if you have questions on his nomenclature... please, shoot your questions in additional threads... I believe I should be able to help on these...)

http://www.perezreverte.com/articulo...-perdio-bambi/

[Villa]

Originally Posted by poli

Spain was the first and only enduring fascist victory in Europe. While the subject of the civil war remains a hot topic in Spain, what can't be denied is the exodus or death of creative people who lived in Spain prior to the war. Lorca, Buñuel, Picasso, Dalí, Miró among others had to leave because artistic expression was discouraged. A country of the avant garde became a country of the cursilería. Religious piety and hypocracy had full reign similar but not as dreadful as what in currently going on in the Middle East. Spanish languages other than Castillian were disouraged and forbidden to be published.

Franco, the Spain's fascist leader, ruled Spain from the mid-1930's through most of the 1970's. Under his repressive regime some good things happened such as economic prosperity that resulted in a rise of the middle class without the benefit of US aid that countries to the north of Spain recieved. The country gained a reputation for being old-fashioned and untouched by revolutionary 1960's .The police state was repressive, but not quite a horrific as others. Nevertheless people disappeared, and freedom of expression was discouraged. Some Spaniards praise Franco and are nostalgic for the more homogenious society that resulted under Franco's rule.

España fue la primera y única victoria fascista y duradero en Europa. Mientras que el tema de la guerra civil sigue siendo un tema candente en España, lo que no se puede negar es el éxodo o la muerte de personas creativas que vivían en España antes de la guerra. Lorca, Buñuel, Picasso, Dalí, Miró, entre otros tuvo que abandonar debido a la expresión artística se desanimó. Un país de la vanguardia se convirtió en un país de la cursilería. Piedad religiosa y la hipocresía tenía rienda suelta similar pero no tan terrible como lo que en la actualidad sucede en el Oriente Medio. Lenguas españolas distintas de castellano se disouraged y prohibido para su publicación.

Franco, el líder fascista de España, gobernado España desde mediados de la década de 1930 a través de la mayor parte de la década de 1970. Bajo su régimen represivo ocurrido algunas cosas buenas, como la prosperidad económica que resultó en un aumento de la clase media sin el beneficio de la ayuda de EE.UU. que los países del norte de España recibimos. El país obtuvo una reputación de ser anticuado y sin tocar por los revolucionarios de 1960. El estado policial represivo, pero no es un horrible como los demás. Sin embargo las personas desaparecidas, y la libertad de expresión se desanime. Algunos españoles elogian Franco y sienten nostalgia por la sociedad más homogenious que dio bajo el régimen de Franco.

Originally Posted by JPablo

Hubo en España una guerra que, como todas las guerras, la ganara quien ganara, la perdieron los poetas...

If you see "Pan's Labyrinth" (El Laberinto del Fauno), (an excellent film), you could see a bit of "who won that war".

While the "image" of Franco is "very bad", he was "smart" enough to "disconnect" from Hitler and Mussolini...

My grandfather was in prison for several years, once Franco won the war... my dad fought on the Republican side (the "losers") when he was about 17 years old... then he had to "serve" under the Nationalist Army, for 3 years, to make sure he was indoctrinated in the spirit of the "new" regime...

But one cannot be Manichean on this subject... José María Gironella has three big tomes, "Los cipreses creen en Dios" "Un millón de muertos" and "Ha estallado la paz", (which were in my dad's library, but I never read...) These volumes deal with the pre-war, the war and the post-war... And reportedly, although published during the Franco regime, these are rather "objective"...

Anyhow... a lot has been written about the subject...

Like Antonio Machado wrote, "¡Señor! La guerra es mala y bárbara; la guerra odiada por las madres, las almas entigrece; mientras la guerra pasa, ¿quién sembrará la tierra?"

He had to leave Spain to be buried in the South of France...

At any rate, I tend to agree with the viewpoints Arturo Pérez Reverte expresses in his "Patente de Corso" writings...

One of these I link here...
La guerra civil que perdió Bambi

(if you have questions on his nomenclature... please, shoot your questions in additional threads... I believe I should be able to help on these...)

http://www.perezreverte.com/articulo...-perdio-bambi/

In war it is not who is right but who is left. Any way joking aside since your family fought on the Republican side do you feel it would have been better if they had won?

[JPablo]

Originally Posted by Villa

In war it is not who is right but who is left. Any way joking aside since your family fought on the Republican side do you feel it would have been better if they had won?

No.

If you read the Arturo P. Reverte article in the link of my previous post, you will understand a bit better my viewpoint on this fratricide... Both sides had plenty of violence and killings...

There are no winners in any war, the victories are always Pyrrhic victories...

[pjt33]

Originally Posted by Villa

... Russia supported the progressives. ...

Allegedly. Orwell's analysis is somewhat different. See Homage to Catalonia.

[Villa]

Russia supported the progressives. ...

Originally Posted by pjt33

Allegedly. Orwell's analysis is somewhat different. See Homage to Catalonia.

So who did Russia support then? Can you sum it up? Are they(Orwell) saying Russia did not support them or supported somebody else? Or give us a link.
According to Wikipedia:
The Republicans received weapons and volunteers from the Soviet Union, Mexico, the international progressive movement and the international community.

If they only got help from Mexico then no wonder they lost.

[JPablo]

See this from Wikipedia,

[...] indicates that Indalecio Prieto hinted, "fairly broadly... that the government could not afford to offend the Communist Party while the Russians were supplying arms." He quotes Julián Zugazagoitia, the Minister of the Interior; "We have received aid from Russia and have had to permit certain actions which we did not like." In a letter he wrote in August 1938 protesting against the treatment of a number of members of the Executive Committee of the POUM who were shortly to be put on trial on the charge of espionage in the Fascist cause, Orwell repeated these words of Zugazagoitia. An editorial note on the letter (taken from, Hugh Thomas, The Spanish Civil War 704) adds: "During a cabinet meeting, 'Zugazagoitia demanded if his jurisdiction as Minister of the Interior were to be limited by Russian policemen' [-] Had they been able to purchase and transport good arms from US, British, and French manufacturers, the socialist and republican members of the Spanish government might have tried to cut themselves loose from Stalin."

[Villa]

Originally Posted by JPablo

See this from Wikipedia,

[...] indicates that Indalecio Prieto hinted, "fairly broadly... that the government could not afford to offend the Communist Party while the Russians were supplying arms." He quotes Julián Zugazagoitia, the Minister of the Interior; "We have received aid from Russia and have had to permit certain actions which we did not like." In a letter he wrote in August 1938 protesting against the treatment of a number of members of the Executive Committee of the POUM who were shortly to be put on trial on the charge of espionage in the Fascist cause, Orwell repeated these words of Zugazagoitia. An editorial note on the letter (taken from, Hugh Thomas, The Spanish Civil War 704) adds: "During a cabinet meeting, 'Zugazagoitia demanded if his jurisdiction as Minister of the Interior were to be limited by Russian policemen' [-] Had they been able to purchase and transport good arms from US, British, and French manufacturers, the socialist and republican members of the Spanish government might have tried to cut themselves loose from Stalin."

What is your point here Pablo? So did Russia support the Republicans?

[JPablo]

Yes, Russia supported the Republicans, but things are not as simplistic as "described" in some history books. (In other words, "supported" them, but also limited them... if you see the last lines I quoted above.)

What happened in that Civil War, regardless of ideologies, is that the guys who were better organized at that juncture "won" the war.

As far as I understand the Republicans were in a mess, in terms of organization...

My whole point is that one cannot say, "these guys were the bad ones" and "these other were the 'good' boys". In both sides were good and bad.

[pjt33]

Originally Posted by Villa

So who did Russia support then? Can you sum it up? Are they(Orwell) saying Russia did not support them or supported somebody else?

Orwell's thesis, as I recall it from reading Homage to Catalonia about two years ago, is that it was in the political interest of the USSR for the Republicans to lose. They supplied arms to the Communist Party, allowing that party to dominate the Republican side (in which there were also Marxist and Anarchist parties), but didn't provide the level of support which they could have done if they wanted the Republicans to win.

[Jorgese]

Hi there.
I am 38 years old. I was born the same year that Franco passed away. The Civil War? it was won by the nationals with Franco in front of them.
Nowadays, Civil War is something that belongs to the history and that nobody wants to talk about because it would open closed wounds.
My generation do not want to wake up this. It is forgotten.

[Premium]

Originally Posted by Jorgese

Nowadays, Civil War is something that belongs to the history and that nobody wants to talk about because it would open closed wounds.
My generation do not want to wake up this. It is forgotten.

I noticed that when I was in Spain. A friend of mine asked our host family if they could tell us stories about it. I've never seen a killing glance like this before.

[Jorgese]

You've to be aware that in Spain there were to sides, and it was common to find divided families.

[Premium]

Originally Posted by Jorgese

You've to be aware that in Spain there were to sides, and it was common to find divided families.

I think it's like in Austria and Germany, everybody knows what happened back here but nobody wants to talk about it.
We thought the topic is just like the fascism in Italy, they don't really mind if you ask them something about Mussolini. Even his granddaughter is a influential politician.

[Villa]

Un amigo mio de España me ha dicho esto:

La Guerra Civil española es algo olvidado aquí en España. Nadie quiere que lo recuerde, porque pertenece al pasado y si hablamos acerca de ello probablemente se abriría heridas cerradas.

But then again, es una persona conservadora.. Me gustaría oir de alguien más progresista/liberal.

[poli]

Creativity was discouraged. Artists were killed or left. It was a brutish police state that lasted over thirty years. When it ended, Spain reawoke and became the dynamic and progressive place it had been prior to the civil war.

Under Franco's reign, peninsular Spain became insular Spain, but curiously and not unlike Pinochet's reign in Chile, became economically prosperous paving the way to a good recovery in subsequent years until of course the current economic crisis which remains a major problem in Europe.

[pjt33]

Originally Posted by Villa

Un amigo mio de España me ha dicho esto:

La Guerra Civil española es algo olvidado aquí en España. Nadie quiere que lo recuerde, porque pertenece al pasado y si hablamos acerca de ello probablemente se abriría heridas cerradas.

But then again, es una persona conservadora.. Me gustaría oir de alguien más progresista/liberal.

Lo que dicen Jorgese y tu amigo es universalizar una opinión que no es universal. Hay los que prefieren que no se hable de la guerra para que se olvide, pero además hay los que no quieren que se olvide. Verse por ejemplo http://elpais.com/tag/fosas_comunes/

[explorator]

Until the arrival to the Spanish Government of Mr. Rodriguez Zapatero (about ten years ago), the general opinion was that the Civil War issue should be forgotten to avoid any argument between the so called "Two Spains". Nevertheless, Mr, Rodriguez Zapatero, seemed considering himself the man who finally had won the war to fascism in Spain and he reopened Pandora's Box. Today the Civil War is a very "sensible" question in Spain -eg: If I had been told that my grandmother's uncle was crucified on his own house's door , because he refused to open the village's church gates, to a group of people who wanted to exploit its relics, I would be afraid when I saw demonstrators waving republican flags. On the other hand if had had a relative fired in front of a cemetery's wall because he was a member of a socialist party, probably I would feel sympathy for those who lost the war-.
Anyway, the best works studying the Spanish Civil War, have been written by British and Northamerican historians, as Hugh Thomas, Stanley G. Payne, Gerarld Brennan, Anthony Beevor, Paul Preston, etc. They have all written excellent essays about our last tragedy, from both points of view: the progressive and the nationalist.
My own opinion is that the Spanish Republic as a democratic western model of government was almost defenseless during this war, as it had to cope with the menace of the rebel army, formed by veterans endured in the extremely cruel Africa wars, and at the same time unable to control the different parties militias, who were fighting more for their own interests than to reestablish the democracy in Spain.
If to all this, we add the foreign factor of the interest of the Stalin's Soviet Union and the maneuvers of the Hitler's Germany preparing the European war, the question of the Spanish Civil War, becomes a true labyrinth.

[pjt33]

Originally Posted by explorator

... Today the Civil War is a very "sensible" question in Spain ...

Sensitive, a no ser que quieras decir que es una pregunta sensata.