Declinación de los sustantivos

[Caramelita]

Hola,

¿Es cierto que los sustantivos declinan sólo en : género y número ?

por ej.

género- femenino - gata, masculino- gato
número - singular- gata/gato , plural- gatas/gatos

[Perikles]

I'm not sure it is correct to say that nouns decline with gender. Gato is the epicene name for a cat of either sex. Perro is dog, again epicene, with perra for bitch, but this is not really a declination. Nouns only decline with a plural ending.

Adjectives, however, can decline with gender and number (only)

Let's see what Rusty says.

[Caramelita]

Originally Posted by Perikles

I'm not sure it is correct to say that nouns decline with gender. Gato is the epicene name for a cat of either sex. Perro is dog, again epicene, with perra for bitch, but this is not really a declination. Nouns only decline with a plural ending.

Adjectives, however, can decline with gender and number (only)

Let's see what Rusty says.

Whoa, thats new for me. I always thought they decline in gender too

I hope Rusty will answer

Is perr- the lexema of the word? and gat- ? if so, maybe it is possible to add there the feminine "a" and masculine "o" ... but then, its just guessing

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by Caramelita

Whoa, thats new for me. I always thought they decline in gender too

I hope Rusty will answer

Is perr- the lexema of the word? and gat- ? if so, maybe it is possible to add there the feminine "a" and masculine "o" ... but then, its just guessing

I'm not sure whether perr- constitutes a lexeme, we need an expert in linguistics. I don't think that declining a noun by changing its gender has much meaning. I mean a particular object has a specific gender, there seems to me no reason why it would change gender. There are closely related words which have different genders, but it's not the actual word declining. Example la manzana apple, el manzano apple tree. These would be the same lexeme.

Perhaps you are confusing the declination of nouns and adjectives?

[Caramelita]

Originally Posted by Perikles

I'm not sure whether perr- constitutes a lexeme, we need an expert in linguistics. I don't think that declining a noun by changing its gender has much meaning. I mean a particular object has a specific gender, there seems to me no reason why it would change gender. There are closely related words which have different genders, but it's not the actual word declining. Example la manzana apple, el manzano apple tree. These would be the same lexeme.

Perhaps you are confusing the declination of nouns and adjectives?

Hmm.. what would be the declination of nouns in this case? the adjective declination is already clear to me (the previous post). Im really confused now

Here for example : http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sustant...or_g.C3.A9nero


It says that :
Según el número, en castellano, los sustantivos se clasifican en:

1. Sustantivos singulares: si el número de objetos a los que hace referencia el nombre es único. En singular, los sustantivos no tienen ningún morfema de número.
2. Sustantivos plurales: si el número de objetos a los que hace referencia el nombre son varios o más de uno.

Según el género, en castellano, los sustantivos se clasifican en:

1. Sustantivos masculinos: El género masculino de un nombre frecuentemente lleva el morfema de género –o al final de la forma de singular (libro, niño, sombrero), aunque existen algunas excepciones ya que palabras que acaban en –o son femeninas como la foto(grafía), la mano, la moto(cicleta). También existen nombres masculinos acabados en consonante alveolar (árbol, ataúd, alias, armazón, ...). La mejor prueba para determinar el género de cualquier sustantivo es comprobar si la palabra requiere un artículo masculino (el, un, etc.). Por lo demás, los días de la semana, los meses del año, los puntos cardinales y los números son masculinos.
2. Sustantivos femeninos: El género femenino de un sustantivo se determina añadiendo el morfema de género –a (niña, vaca, mesa, ventana, ...). Anteponiendo un artículo femenino (la, una, etc.) a una palabra y viendo si es gramaticalmente aceptable la expresión se conoce el género. Las letras del alfabeto son femeninas. Existen unas pocas palabras acabadas en -a que son masculinas el día, el mapa, el clima, el cometa, el planeta. Y las palabras en -ista pueden ser masculinas o femeninas según el contexto.

so for example : niñ- could be either niña or niño... i guess niñ- is the lexema

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by Caramelita

Hmm.. what would be the declination of nouns in this case? the adjective declination is already clear to me (the previous post). Im really confused now

so for example : niñ- could be either niña or niño... i guess niñ- is the lexema

Yes - This is all quite straightforward, and I think the problem is your understanding of 'declination'.

Declination is the inflection of a noun to describe its grammatical function. The form of the word changes to describe whether it is the subject, object, indirect object, or governed by a preposition. Some languages inflect strongly (Latin, Greek) some weakly (German) and some hardly at all (English).

Take the word table in Latin. If you said 'the table is in the corner' the word is mensa. If you said 'I made that table', it would be mensam. If you said 'the legs of that table are blue', it would be mensae and so on. If you were talking to Brutus, and saying 'and you too, Brutus' you would say et tu Brute? because the name declines to reflect the fact you are talking directly to somebody.

German does something similar (sometimes). English nouns only decline in the genitive case denoting possession. I like John. I like John's house. The 's is short for es which is a Saxon genitive.

What you quoted about Spanish nouns has nothing to do with declension, just word formation and general rules for noun endings associated with genders.

This declension doesn't happen in Spanish nouns (but I thought it did in Hebrew ). The only change is from singular to plural, with a plural ending. So nouns decline only with number.

Was that any help?

[Caramelita]

Originally Posted by Perikles

Yes - This is all quite straightforward, and I think the problem is your understanding of 'declination'.

Declination is the inflection of a noun to describe its grammatical function. The form of the word changes to describe whether it is the subject, object, indirect object, or governed by a preposition. Some languages inflect strongly (Latin, Greek) some weakly (German) and some hardly at all (English).

Take the word table in Latin. If you said 'the table is in the corner' the word is mensa. If you said 'I made that table', it would be mensam. If you said 'the legs of that table are blue', it would be mensae and so on. If you were talking to Brutus, and saying 'and you too, Brutus' you would say et tu Brute? because the name declines to reflect the fact you are talking directly to somebody.

German does something similar (sometimes). English nouns only decline in the genitive case denoting possession. I like John. I like John's house. The 's is short for es which is a Saxon genitive.

What you quoted about Spanish nouns has nothing to do with declension, just word formation and general rules for noun endings associated with genders.

This declension doesn't happen in Spanish nouns (but I thought it did in Hebrew ). The only change is from singular to plural, with a plural ending. So nouns decline only with number.

Was that any help?

Oh my god! you are completely right, I just realized it now!!
I did mean the whole time "flexión nominal", jeez!!! somehow the declinación got stuck in my head, because of the conjugación.

So after all, the flexión categories for substantivos are género y número, is that true?? and same goes for the adjectives, which are also in the "flexión" category, not declinación, right??


En las lenguas flexivas, el nombre se compone de un lexema o raíz y posiblemente de otros morfemas constituyentes o gramaticales de género, número o caso gramatical. Así un nombre tiene una forma u otra en términos de su género, número y a veces caso. El conjunto de formas de una raíz entre las cuales no existen diferencias semánticas sino sólo gramaticales, todas estas variantes forman la llamada declinación.


And since there is no caso gramatical in spanish (or at least in this category), then its only gender and number, right ??

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by Caramelita

So after all, the flexión categories for substantivos are género y número, is that true?? and same goes for the adjectives, which are also in the "flexión" category, not declinación, right??

And since there is no caso gramatical in spanish (or at least in this category), then its only gender and number, right ??

I still think you are confusing lexeme and substantive. The lexeme inflects to produce substantives (=nouns) of a fixed gender. The nouns only inflect to show a singular or plural. The declension of nouns in Spanish is limited to the difference between singular and plural.

Where's Rusty when you need him?

[Caramelita]

Originally Posted by Perikles

I still think you are confusing lexeme and substantive. The lexeme inflects to produce substantives (=nouns) of a fixed gender. The nouns only inflect to show a singular or plural. The declension of nouns in Spanish is limited to the difference between singular and plural.

Where's Rusty when you need him?

Oh now I am completely confused
According to wikipedia, the "flexión nominal en castellano" is "género y número" and there is the example of the cat, gat-a , gat-o, gat-a-s, gat-o-s. What does that mean then??


I dont know who Rusty is, but I hope he comes soon

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by Caramelita

Oh now I am completely confused
According to wikipedia, the "flexión nominal en castellano" is "género y número" and there is the example of the cat, gat-a , gat-o, gat-a-s, gat-o-s. What does that mean then??

Ah - ok - I was a bit confused. That "flexión nominal en castellano" is not declension (as you said), but I don't know the English expression, because it's irrelevant in English. It seems to be simply the formation of nouns from a lexeme, including the change from singular to plural. It's that simple.

[Caramelita]

Originally Posted by Perikles

Ah - ok - I was a bit confused. That "flexión nominal en castellano" is not declension (as you said), but I don't know the English expression, because it's irrelevant in English. It seems to be simply the formation of nouns from a lexeme, including the change from singular to plural. It's that simple.

Yeyy, so I got it right so its the change from singular to plural and from fememino to masculino, right?

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by Caramelita

Yeyy, so I got it right so its the change from singular to plural and from fememino to masculino, right?

The "flexión nominal en castellano" is, yes.

[wrholt]

Whether or not Spanish nouns inflect for both gender and number, or whether nouns have gender and inflect only for number, or whether they have both gender and number seems to be an area of debate among linguists who study Spanish. On he other hand, teachers of Spanish seem to like the idea that word sets such as "amig(o)(a)(os)(as)" are one word that varies for gender and number because it seems to make learning simpler.

But what about word sets such as "artist(a)(as)", which has one singular form shared by both genders and one plural form shared by both genders? Or word sets such as "ran(a)/(as)" or "sap(o)(os)", each of which has only one gender, although it comes in both singular and plural? What about the word sets "hombre(-/s)/mujer(-/es)): one word with two inflections? Or two words? If "hombre(-/s)" and "mujer(-/es)" are two words rather than one word, then shouldn't "amigo(-/s)" and "amiga(-/s)" be two words? What about words like "persona(-/s)" (always feminine) or "testigo(-/s)" (always masculine)? There is no inflection for gender, only inflection for number. What about non-count nouns like "harina" (flour)? (Actually, it is possible to say "harinas", but this word seems to be equivalent to "tipos/clases de harina" rather than being a plural of "harina".) And how about the nouns that are always plural, such as "tijeras"?

I would argue that for a teacher, the best analysis is the one that makes teaching/learning easier or faster: this may well be the idea that some nouns inflect for both gender and number, other nouns inflect only for number, and other nouns don't inflect at all. For a linguist, the best analysis is the simplest analysis that explains all of the relevant facts in all their gory details, and this may well be either the idea that nouns have gender and inflect for number or that nouns have gender and number and do not inflect at all.

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by wrholt

Whether or not Spanish nouns inflect for both gender and number, or whether nouns have gender and inflect only for number, or whether they have both gender and number seems to be an area of debate among linguists who study Spanish. On he other hand, teachers of Spanish seem to like the idea that word sets such as "amig(o)(a)(os)(as)" are one word that varies for gender and number because it seems to make learning simpler.

Yes, I agree that the concept of declination can be varied to make learning simpler. That is all very well if you are learning one language. This does create a problem, however, if you finish up learning several languages, because it is far easier to have a fixed concept of a grammatical expression which is the same across the board, rather than have to re-examine what you understand by these terms for every (Indo-European) language you come across.

To various degrees of depth I am aware of English, German, French, Latin, Ancient Greek, Modern Greek, Danish and Welsh grammar, as well as Spanish. None of these languages has the idea that nouns decline with gender, so I'm reluctant to see why Spanish should be different. I think it's far easier to say that the lexeme inflects according to gender, which is true for all that list, including Spanish.

It doesn't really matter though, as long as terminology is defined . Which it never is .