Argentina is the country most like Italy outside of Italy

[Villa]

Argentina is the country most like Italy outside of Italy

3/4 of the 13,356,715 people of Buenos Aires, Argentina are of Italian origin. The over all population of Argentina has a higher percentage of Italians than anyother country outside of Italy. Argentina has more than 3,500,000 Italian speakers; this tongue is the second most spoken language in the nation. Italian immigration from the beginning of the 20th century made a lasting and significant impact on the pronunciation and vernacular of the nation's spoken Spanish, giving it an Italian flair. In fact, Italian has contributed so much to Rioplatense that many foreigners mistake it for Italian.

[ookami]

Sobre la influencia no estoy capacitado para decir mucho, porque ya ha pasado casi un siglo y no es algo en lo que he profundizado. Pero se discute si hoy en día queda tanta. Antes sin duda, pero ahora yo por lo menos no lo creo.

No tengo ganas de dormir así que trataré de sintetizar un poco como llego toda esa gente aquí:
Cuando Argentina se empezo a formar "enserio" como un proyecto de nación, se vieron tres problemas: inversión (terminó viniendo el 90% de Inglaterra), tierras (se llevó a cabo la 'Campaña del Desierto', dejando a la Argentina conformada casi como la conocemos hoy; y mano de obra.
La inmigración deseada era principalmente de los países del norte, como Alemanía, Noruega, Inglaterra, Francia, ..., es decir: con un alto indice de profesionalismo. Al final terminaron primando los del sur y sobre todos, los campesinos con esperanza de progresar para luego retornar a su país, eran de: Italia y España. Los motivos de su migración son muy variados, pero vale decir que en ese momento se estaba viviendo una situación muy dificil en Europa en general y Argentina prometía mucho: tierras recién conquistadas y que aparentemente se podían repartir aún, alojamiento preparado apenas arribas al puerto, posibilidad de ser ciudadano sin mayores restricciones, etc, etc. "Argentina país para todos", incluso quedan rastros de la abertura al mundo de Argentina hasta hoy en día, en toda la consitutución.
Obviamente la realidad fue distinta, pero no creo que valga la pena aunar en esto.

Por lo que recuerdo, de los más 5.000.000 inmigrantes que entraron, se quedaron en el país unos 3.000.000 (sobre 4 millones que había de Argentinos...). De esa gente el 70% era de Italia, el 20% de España y el 10% restante de otros países, de los que destacan con varias colonías: Alemania, Polonia, Suecia, etc.
Solo 800.000 pudieron asentarse en el campo y con contratos pesimos de arrendamiento. El resto a las ciudades, como obreros.

Una gran influencia se dió en la política. El partido anarquista fue formado e ideado completamente por los inmigrantes europeos, que ya contaban con varias décadas de lucha política que en Argentina aún no se habían dado. También destacan los partidos socialistas y sindicalistas.

Por otro lado, se formaron varios barrios que parecían ser una parte de Europa extraviada en América, como 'La Boca'. En general toda la arquitectura de la ciudad se pareció y sigue pareciendo mucho a la europea. Durante los buenos tiempos económicos la elite argentina se jactaba de ser "La Europa de América", y realmente vivían como la elite de allá.

En el lenguaje había mucha influencia, pero la mayor parte murió hace tiempo y lo que queda viene de la mano del lunfardo, una jerga utilizada principalmente en el Rio de la Plata y que la propulso el Tango. A pesar que ya no se lo suele usar, quedarón muchas palabras que se dicen continuamente, aunque la minoría tienen origen italiano y no sabría distinguirlas y, si son italianas, seguramente sean de algún dialecto:
bondi , gamba , mango , laburo, bacán , boludo , capo , linyera , groso etc.

Quedó algo de gramática italiana escondida sobre todo en la forma de hablar de gente que no se educó mucho, pero es dificil detectarla. En fin, es discutible. Yo visité hace unos meses a TODA mi familía italiana (que vive en otra ciudad de Argentina) y la verdad, casi no hay rastro más que en lo físico. Por ahí se llegaba 10, 20, 30 años antes podría encontrar parientes con mucho acento y que dominen el italiano y apenas sepan español, pero ya no.
Las costumbres fueron mueriendo. ¿Qué quedó? Muchisimas ciudadanias y pasaportes italianos seguro que si, es más, tengo el mio aquí al lado

[brute]

Originally Posted by Villa

Argentina is the country most like Italy outside of Italy

3/4 of the 13,356,715 people of Buenos Aires, Argentina are of Italian origin. The over all population of Argentina has a higher percentage of Italians than anyother country outside of Italy. Argentina has more than 3,500,000 Italian speakers; this tongue is the second most spoken language in the nation. Italian immigration from the beginning of the 20th century made a lasting and significant impact on the pronunciation and vernacular of the nation's spoken Spanish, giving it an Italian flair. In fact, Italian has contributed so much to Rioplatense that many foreigners mistake it for Italian.

There are also areas in Argentina where Welsh or German are the dominant languages.

[ookami]

Where? (I really don't know) maybe in the German colonies, but I think they speak Spanish as the first language now and German as the second. It's like the fourth generation. My father was at a German colony like 30 years ago (and a German girl fall in love with him ) And they all spoke Spanish.

Between "Italy" isn't thaaaat common as a language, I don't know anyone that studies it. I'm sure a lot of people make courses but obviously, the second language is English, by far. The third place will for... Portuguese, French or Italian. I found some stadistics that says the third is Portuguese and for me is like that.

In the past for sure it was the second tongue, but the mayority of that people is already dead and the familys are less traditional.

[Villa]

Ask any native speaker of Spanish and they will tell you that people from Argentina speak Spanish with an Italian accent.

[ookami]

But to have an alike accent (that I don't know if we have it) it has not a lot to do with been "alike" Italy or speak Italian. I'm sure we don't have 3.500.000 persons that speak more than just a few words of Italian... I'm almost sure we don't have even more than one million; and .. half million...

[poli]

Originally Posted by ookami

But to have an similar accent (that I didn't even know we had) doesn't mean we speak Italian. I'm sure we don't have 3.500.000 persons that speak more than just a few words of Italian... I'm almost sure we don't even have more than one million and a half..

Cualquiera persona que habla español habla y entiende algo de italiano.
Es verdad que los argentinos, por lo menos los bonaeroences, hablan
con un accento y ritmo distintamente italiano. Se lo nota en seguida cuando vds. hablan. No me suena mál.

[ookami]

Originally Posted by poli

Cualquiera persona que habla español habla y entiende algo de italiano.
Es verdad que los argentinos, por lo menos los bonaerences, hablan
con un acento y ritmo distintamente(indistintamente?) italiano. Se lo nota en seguida cuando vds. hablan. No me suena mál.

Thanks poli. I think I wrote in a little confusing way:
with: (that I don't know if we have it) I didn't want to say (that I didn't even know we had) I wanted to say I don't know if we actually have it (and that that don't mind to the conversation, implicity)
with: and .. half million... is just that, I wanted to show as if I could continuing saying: and I almost sure we don't have even a hald million...

Look at this, that's italian accent? (I really don't know)

[irmamar]

Argentinian reminds me the Italian accent, but just a bit. I could distinguish perfectly an Argentinian from an Italian (speaking Spanish, of course)

[Jessica]

really? That's cool

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by Villa

Argentina is the country most like Italy outside of Italy

3/4 of the 13,356,715 people of Buenos Aires, Argentina are of Italian origin. The over all population of Argentina has a higher percentage of Italians than anyother country outside of Italy. Argentina has more than 3,500,000 Italian speakers; this tongue is the second most spoken language in the nation. Italian immigration from the beginning of the 20th century made a lasting and significant impact on the pronunciation and vernacular of the nation's spoken Spanish, giving it an Italian flair. In fact, Italian has contributed so much to Rioplatense that many foreigners mistake it for Italian.

How about Montevideo, Uruguay? Is there a similar Italian population there? My close friend who lives in Uruguay is from a big Italian family that has been in Uruguay for several generations....

[Villa]

Dos argentinos llegan a Italia.
Dice uno:
- Che, ¿habrá argentinos acá en Roma?
- Y, no se... mirá en la guía telefónica.
Y el otro lee:
- Baldini, Corranti, Dominici, Ferrutti... ¡Che, Roma está llena de apellidos argentinos!

[Villa]

Originally Posted by laepelba

How about Montevideo, Uruguay? Is there a similar Italian population there? My close friend who lives in Uruguay is from a big Italian family that has been in Uruguay for several generations....

Sí, e vero laepelba Uruguay's population is 1/2 Italian. They speak
Spanish con un accento italiano senza dubbio. Sin embargo it's Brazil that
has the biggest Italian population outside of Italy. The difference is that
both Argentina and Uruguay have a larger percentage of their population
that are of Italian origin.

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by Villa

Sí, e vero laepelba Uruguay's population is 1/2 Italian. They speak
Spanish con un accento italiano senza dubbio. Sin embargo it's Brazil that
has the biggest Italian population outside of Italy. The difference is that
both Argentina and Uruguay have a larger percentage of their population
that are of Italian origin.

Not only is your answer interesting ... but your Italiospanglish is quite impressive, too!

[CrOtALiTo]

I don't meet that country named Argentina, but I can't believe in that there are most population from Italia than people native from Argentina.


Therefore, like here in my country at least in my state there are most people to come from U.S.A likely they are from New York than Mexican people living here in this place, the like that people to come from Tampico, Veracruz, Tabasco coming to this place that people native of the region, therefore I believe that Argentina to be a country with a lot business placed in that country for that reason, I believe that there are a lot diversity to people of another countries than in the same country where are from them.

[laepelba]

I don't know about Argentina, but there are NO indigenous people living in Uruguay. They were all killed by the European settlers.

[ookami]

The mayority of people here is from Italy and Spain. Secondary: french, german, swiss, etc.

From wikipedia:

"Por otra parte, ya para 1920, un poco más de la mitad de quienes poblaban la ciudad más grande, Buenos Aires, eran nacidos en el exterior. De acuerdo a la estimación efectuada por Zulma Recchini de Lattes la población argentina, que de acuerdo al censo de 1960 era de aproximadamente 20 millones de habitantes, si no hubiese existido el aporte de la corriente inmigratoria proveniente de Europa, y en menor medida, la proveniente de Medio Oriente, sólo hubiera tenido para ese entonces poco menos de 8 millones de habitantes[43] ."

If half of the population of Bs.As in that year was born in the exterior... (we aren't counting their sons, that in that time would be near 0 - 40 years, many of them would had grandchildren...)

The other day in a one hundred people class, when the teacher asked if there was someone with a native line of blood(not necesarry pure), only one girl raised the hand. But in her family there were turkish, italian and polac blood too.

About indigenous, they were killed near 1880++, in the famous "Campaña/Conquista del Desierto", where Argentina expand their territory(look at this, the territory of Argentina before the campaing was the light blue one only). After the campaing, besides all the dead indigenous, near 10.000 of them were taken prisioners and prohibited to procreate; another communities survived going to difficult lands, and still live today (with a lot of problems and help from the goverment, but..)
"Thanks" to this massacre, there were(were or was? I'm confuse) a lot of land waiting for be shared and used. This was one of the causes for the Europeans to choose this place, with all that new land they would have had a big opportunity. (Obviously, they arrived here and realized that all the lands were distributed between the captains, some soldiers, and big landowners while they spread)

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by ookami

The other day in a one hundred people class, when the teacher asked if there was someone with a native line of blood(not necesarry pure), only one girl raised the hand. But in her family there were turkish, italian and polish blood too. (The other word you used is derogatory. )

About indigenous, they were killed near 1880++, in the famous "Campaña/Conquista del Desierto", where Argentina expand their territory(look at this, the territory of Argentina before the campaing was the light blue one only). After the campaign, besides all the dead indigenous, near 10.000 of them were taken prisioners and prohibited to procreate; another communities survived going to difficult lands, and still live today (with a lot of problems and help from the goverment, but..)
"Thanks" to this massacre, there was (were or was? I'm confused) (use "was" because it agrees with "land" which is singular) a lot of land waiting for to be shared and used. This was one of the causes for the Europeans to choose this place, with all that new land they would have had a big opportunity. (Obviously, they arrived here and realized that all the lands were distributed between the captains, some soldiers, and big landowners while they spread)

Thanks for that story. It's SO sad. Just like all of the stories of the Europeans coming to the New World to conquer with their imperialism....

[ookami]

Thanks for the corrections laepelba

[laepelba]

No problem ... and my name is "Lou Ann" - you are welcome to call me that!