Using "se"

[bricks]

I have trouble understanding when this is used other than a third person pronoun (himself etc). I have read several sites but still am rather confused about pretty much every other use of the word.

Can somebody kind shed some light?

P.S - I don't mean se as in "know".

Thank you

[hermit]

Hi bricks - One of the most subtle expressive devices in any language,
and certainly in Spanish, is the reflexive pronoun.

Examples:

"Se puede decirlo así." "One can say it like that."

"No se puede pasar por aquí." literally, "One cannot go through this way."
So, "Nobody can, (and everybody will have to detour.)"

¿Cómo se dice...? "How does one say...?", therefore, "How do you say...?"
"How is it said in Spain (en España)?

There, for starters; there's plenty more!

[CrOtALiTo]

Originally Posted by bricks

I have trouble understanding when this is used other than a third person pronoun (himself etc). I have read several sites but still am rather confused about pretty much every other use of the word.

Can somebody kind shed some light?

P.S - I don't mean se as in "know".

Thank you

Well really I don't know that you are trying to ask us, but I have a little idea about your thinking in the you need to know or really in the you want knowing.

I can give you a some example or advises of the you need to know.

El se espera que pase el mal tiempo.

Se espero a que dejara de llover.

Se entendio con el cartero.

Exactly those examples are the I can give you.


Have fun.

[Rusty]

There are many posts in these forums that describe the various uses of the pronoun se. Search for 'reflexive se', 'passive se', 'impersonal se', and 'double object pronouns' (the 3rd-person IOP le becomes se when it's followed by a DOP that begins with an 'l'). Here's a site to whet your appetite.

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by Rusty

Here's a site to whet your appetite.

Thanks for the link - it's very useful.

There seems to be some overlap in the range of explanations:

As the equivalent of the English passive voice: By using se, particularly when discussing inanimate objects, it is possible to indicate some sort of action without indicating who performed the action.

The impersonal se: Se puede encontrar cocos en el mercado. (You can find coconuts in the market.)

The example given can also be translated coconuts can be found in the market. This is how I would translate it, and this makes it a passive voice, not an impersonal.

The difference is not obvious (to me ).
I've just had a thought - is the difference identified by the singular Se puede with coconuts (plural) which makes it an impersonal, whereas as a substitute for a passive voice it would be Se pueden ?

[bricks]

That link was the one I was reading before I made this post, and I had trouble understanding it. I guess it wasn't entirely my fault then.

But yes, I will make the necessary searches recommended.

Thank you. I will post here if I have any more questions if nobody minds.

[chileno]

I think it is intimately jointed to "it"

[bricks]

Originally Posted by chileno

I think it is intimately jointed to "it"

Gracias amigo.

Pero un consejo para usted, en Ingles se dice "joined to it".

(Did I do it right?)

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by chileno

I think it is intimately jointed to "it"

Originally Posted by bricks

Pero un consejo para usted, en Ingles se dice "joined to it".

(Did I do it right?)

I think he wanted to say 'intimately connected with "it" '

[bricks]

Originally Posted by Perikles

I think he wanted to say 'intimately connected with "it" '

Sorry, I should be more clear. Did I use "se" correctly in that sentence?

[bricks]

Originally Posted by Perikles

The difference is not obvious (to me ).
I've just had a thought - is the difference identified by the singular Se puede with coconuts (plural) which makes it an impersonal, whereas as a substitute for a passive voice it would be Se pueden ?

That is a good point because currently I am confused by the use of "Se pueden". Wouldn't the impersonaly "se" roughly translate to "they" anyway? So what is the point of "pueden". But of course, if what you suggest is true then I would understand.

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by bricks

That is a good point because currently I am confused by the use of "Se pueden". Wouldn't the impersonaly "se" roughly translate to "they" anyway? So what is the point of "pueden". But of course, if what you suggest is true then I would understand.

I've checked my grammar book, and it appears to confirm what I had guessed. It differentiates between

Se vende naranjas (impersonal reflexive) - Oranges are sold (by someone)

Se venden naranjas (passive reflexive) - Oranges are sold (Literally, Oranges sell themselves)

In the case of se pueden, the se is not a 3rd person pl pronoun they, but indicating a reflexive used as a passive voice: For example

Se celebrarán las elecciones en marzo
Literally: The elections will hold themselves in March
Avoiding the passive voice in The elections will be held in March.

This avoidance of the passive voice is very common, but not if the agent is significant:

Este cuadro fue pintado por Picasso
This picture was painted by Picasso

(Hope that helps - I'm just quoting from my grammar book - I'm no expert)

[bricks]

My god that is confusing.

I just don't get it because the examples of a passive "se" on this page: http://www.drlemon.net/Grammar/impersonal.html do not follow what you are suggesting. I'm not doubting you I just wonder why it is different.

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by bricks

My god that is confusing.

Yes it is, and even more confusing when dealing with the real passive voice, where you have to choose between ser + past participle and estar + past participle. Luckily this doesn't happen much, so forget about it at the moment.

Edit: I posted before seeing your link. It does in fact say the same as I did, but presented in a different way (probably better, in fact)

You pay the fines on Mondays.Se pagan las multas los lunes.

I don't like this 'You pay ..' but they call this an impersonal in English, equivalent to se pagan in Spanish which literally means they pay themselves, which is a way of avoiding stating who it is that is doing the paying. The difference takes some getting used to.

[irmamar]

Yes, you used "se" correctly (se dice).

One of the most difficult questions in Spanish is "se" :

- Se instead of "le/les" (Indirect Object), to avoid cacophony:

Se lo dije a Paco (se = a él, IO; lo = eso, DO). You can't say "le lo dije".
Se lo he dado a los niños (se = a ellos, lo = eso)

- Se reflexivo: when there is a person who makes and receives the action. Only in this case, se is reflexivo:

María se peina (to herself).
Juan se afeita (to himself).

- Se recíproco: there are two (or more) persons involved in a situation (each other):

Juan y María se escriben correos electrónicos.
Pedro y Ramón se pegan.

- Se dativo ético o superfluo o intensificador:

Instead of saying: El niño no come.
You can say: El niño no me come.

(Sorry, I used the most know example of dativo ético, and here "se" is not used. Another example:

Juan comió la paella.
Juan se comió la paella.)

- Se en verbos pronominales: some verbs add "se" and they are called pronominales: arrepentirse, caerse, quejarse. The pronoun is compulsory. There are some verbs which are strictly pronominals (as arrepentirse), but there are another ones which can be used with "se"or not (and sometimes they change their meaning):

Siempre se arrepiente de sus acciones.
El niño se duerme.
El niño duerme.

- Se impersonal: sometimes it is confused with "se" pasivo reflejo. Sentences with "se" impersonal have no subject, so the verb will be always in singular (3rd person). Pay attention to the differences (singular and plural):

En este hotel se atiende bien al invitado - ... se atiende bien a los invitados.
En esta empresa se obedece al superior - ... se obedece a los superiores.

- Se pasivo reflejo: these sentences have a subject, because verb agree with subject in number. As Perikles wisely pointed out ( ), they can be easily confused with sentences "se" impersonal. The difference is the number of the verb. If you can say the verb in both singular and plural, the sentence is pasiva refleja:

Se pueden encontrar cocos en el mercado / se puede encontrar un coco en el mercado

Sorry, Perikles, "se vende naranjas" is not a correct sentence, but "se venden naranjas". Naranjas is the subject (se vende una naranja).

Here is a post where I explained such sentences.

I think I have commented all of them . I hope it helps

Edit: "se pagan las multas" is pasiva refleja: multas is the subject.

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by irmamar

Sorry, Perikles, "se vende naranjas" is not a correct sentence, but "se venden naranjas". Naranjas is the subject (se vende una naranja).

I'm not disputing this, but I did say I was quoting my grammar book, which does say that

"se vende naranjas" and "se venden naranjas" are both theoretically possible, although there is a strong tendency to use only the passive reflexive (i.e. the plural verb).... the other is, however, still commonly found in many parts of the Spanish-speaking world.

[CrOtALiTo]

Originally Posted by bricks

That link was the one I was reading before I made this post, and I had trouble understanding it. I guess it wasn't entirely my fault then.

But yes, I will make the necessary searches recommended.

Thank you. I will post here if I have any more questions if nobody minds.

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When I need to something, immediately I go to the website more in google.ca, because that machine searches is more free than another machines in the internet.

Nowadays I'm searching information relative to How I can install my own server web mail and you believe me, I have found branch off above the I need to know for the configuration.

Just I wanted to shared with you the relevant that the internet can be.

[irmamar]

Originally Posted by Perikles

I'm not disputing this, but I did say I was quoting my grammar book, which does say that

Throw your grammar book away

"Se vende naranjas" is not possible (not even theoretically). Here there is an interesting link about this question.

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by irmamar

Throw your grammar book away

"Se vende naranjas" is not possible (not even theoretically). Here there is an interesting link about this question.

Good grief - it's not that difficult, how can the book get it wrong, and what else has it got wrong? Many thanks.

[irmamar]

You're welcome

Preposition "a" is an important clue . If you said:

Se venden extranjeros, that would mean that foreigners are sold as slaves.

But if you said:

Se vende a extranjeros, that would mean that foreigners are able to buy something in a place.