Formal vs. informal

[JazzHeart]

There is a big grey area with this for me. I know teachers, elders etc. I would use formal and friends and family informal.

Talking on a forum such as this, do I always use informal?
Meeting a new person, do I always use formal or does the depend on their age/position?
When in doubt should I use formal or informal?

Thanks for putting up with me yet again!

[chileno]

I would say you use the informal in the forum, that way it says that we are all friends.

That my opinion, though.

[Rusty]

Here in the forums, we're friends. Always tutearnos (speak to us informally).

When you are greeting a person for the first time, you should use a formal register until you consider that person a friend (and the feeling is mutual). If the stranger is a child, however, it's OK to use an informal register.

[Luna Azul]

Originally Posted by JazzHeart

There is a big grey area with this for me. I know teachers, elders etc. I would use formal and friends and family informal.

Talking on a forum such as this, do I always use informal?
Meeting a new person, do I always use formal or does the depend on their age/position?
When in doubt should I use formal or informal?

Thanks for putting up with me yet again!

I think you got it right. When you meet a new person the way you address him/her totally depends on that person. Follow your instinct.

It's better to be formal with a person that you wouldn't normally be, than be informal with the Bishop, for example.

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by Luna Azul

It's better to be formal with a person that you wouldn't normally be, that be informal with the Bishop, for example.

That's odd, isn't it? If you use 'tu' for the top of the religious pyramid, then you would expect to use it for a bit lower down as well.

Here, in Tenerife, the polite form is restricted to impersonal encounters such as bureaucratic dealings and police, and morons in call centres. A teenager I know says that the informal form is used universally in schools, with all the teachers. The locals in my village are uncertain about my status as some weird foreigner. They are aware that the polite form can be unfriendly and the informal form can be presumptuous, so they often hedge their bets with a ¿cómo estamos? and wait for a cue from me.

[aleCcowaN]

It happens a lot, but the summary is that the more ignorant in the society use only informal ways with everyone because they don't know well formal ways and the can't manage both. No matter I address the grocer and the butcher with "usted" they would use "vos" with me ... and the grocer is 15 years younger than me. The theory is that using "tú" and "vos" means trust and using "usted" means respect: it all boils to what is more important, trust or respect, as if having one of them would imply the lack of the other. My personal policy is telling those who totally out of context address me with "vos" or "tú" what I really think of them ... otherwise, what is trust for?

[Luna Azul]

Originally Posted by Perikles

That's odd, isn't it? If you use 'tu' for the top of the religious pyramid, then you would expect to use it for a bit lower down as well.

Let me clarify, I made a typo in my original sentence which I already corrected: Instead of "that" it's "than".

Does it sound better?

What I want to say is, the default application is when in doubt, use the formal way

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by Luna Azul

Let me clarify, I made a typo in my original sentence which I already corrected: Instead of "that" it's "than".

Does it sound better?

What I want to say is, the default application is when in doubt, use the formal way

Oh, I wasn't challenging your formal language use with a bishop, I was just making an ironical comment about organized religions. I agree with you that when in doubt, formal is better than informal.

[Caballero]

If I understood correctly, he meant that if you address God informally, (at least I assume you do. In English we normally do. When praying most people use thou instead of you), then why wouldn't you address a Bishop, who is lower in hierarchy to God informall.

My personal policy is telling those who totally out of context address me with "vos" or "tú" what I really think of them

What do you mean by that?

It happens a lot, but the summary is that the more ignorant in the society use only informal ways with everyone because they don't know well formal ways and the can't manage both.

So, someone would sound merely lower class if they used vos to you? Are there some lower class people who only use vos with everyone and never usted, or is it only people that are deliberately impolite?

No matter I address the grocer and the butcher with "usted" they would use "vos" with me ... and the grocer is 15 years younger than me.

So does that mean that you hate the butcher and the grocer because of that and are seething with anger on the inside?

[aleCcowaN]

Originally Posted by Caballero

If I understood correctly, he meant that if you address God informally, (at least I assume you do. In English we normally do. When praying most people use thou instead of you), then why wouldn't you address a Bishop, who is lower in hierarchy to God informall.

What do you mean by that?

So, someone would sound merely lower class if they used vos to you? Are there some lower class people who only use vos with everyone and never usted, or is it only people that are deliberately impolite?

So does that mean that you hate the butcher and the grocer because of that and are seething with anger on the inside?

Read it all again, do some reality checks in the way, and if some doubts persist, come back again.

[SPX]

When I was in Guatemala, I was told that young people are always informal with each other (and by young I mean under 30 or so). In fact, I was told that if you were to be formal with another young person then you were suspected to be gay.

[Rusty]

To me, this seems like a personal or regional thing unique to the area you were in. "Standard" Spanish has no such nuance.

Word of advice: Listen to the native speakers you're around and mimic their way of speaking. If they tell you something is taboo, or if they tell you something has another meaning than what you learned elsewhere, it is usually for that area only (or from their personal perspective only, or the latest fad), unless you learned it wrong.

[SPX]

^^^ That reminds me of the time when I used the verb "excusar" and I was quickly silenced and told that it had something to do with going to the bathroom.

I don't know. I didn't really understand what they were talking about.

[aleCcowaN]

Yes, sure. Formal language was invented to convey gayness .

You may also consider that when you are telling here the stories of what they told you, you are telling what they considered appropriate to tell you, according to your circumstances.

[poli]

I am really grateful that English does not have this complication.

I can tell you that if you are a younger person dealing with older people from the Caribbean region (Antilles) Ud. should be used particularly if speaking to an a woman.

I know that in Spain and Argentina the Ud. is not encouraged.

Regions matter. In the United States, because of the variety of Latinos who live here, it's best to use Ud unless you are
sure where the person is from, and if you are acquainted with them in a
non-formal environment. It the person answers you with tú, then you can
feel free to use the informal if you wish.

[aleCcowaN]

I would add that there are many situations when the way to address a person is asymmetrical. If a sexagenarian addresses an unknown 12 year old with "tú" or "vos", he is not expecting to be addressed by the kid with other than "usted".

I rather prefer having both forms that having to remember the nicknames of a lot of fellows you meet in a party. And I'm sure that a two or three-line rule may explain when to use each pronoun with a 98% accuracy.

[Caballero]

I would add that there are many situations when the way to address a person is asymmetrical. If a sexagenarian addresses an unknown 12 year old with "tú" or "vos", he is not expecting to be addressed by the kid with other than "usted".

And if the kid addresses him informally, would the guy tell him to use usted, or just continue talking without correcting him?

---------
Just wondering, do books in Argentina use "tú" ever?

[aleCcowaN]

Originally Posted by Caballero

And if the kid addresses him informally, would the guy tell him to use usted, or just continue talking without correcting him?

It is as varied as human relations can be.

Originally Posted by Caballero

Just wondering, do books in Argentina use "tú" ever?

The way you asked, I have to answer "yes, most of the time, if a second person singular pronoun is used".

[SPX]

Originally Posted by poli

I am really grateful that English does not have this complication.

Amen.

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN

Yes, sure. Formal language was invented to convey gayness .

You may also consider that when you are telling here the stories of what they told you, you are telling what they considered appropriate to tell you, according to your circumstances.

That sounds like you think there was some sort of conspiracy. . .

I chalked it up to the flow of machismo among young males in Guatemalan culture. Being "too polite" to another young person might be perceived as soft/weak/feminine, and therefore "gay," which I think in that country is even more of a pejorative among young males than it is in the United States.

[Caballero]

The way you asked, I have to answer "yes, most of the time, if a second person singular pronoun is used".

Even in informal dialogue?

Do you know of any free ebooks from Argentina on the internet? I want to compare them to books from Spain and Mexico and see how the word choice differs. Or do they just write books (even ones not for meant to be published internationally) in some sort of neutral Spanish that is impossible to place? I heard that in Andalusia, Spain, for instance, people deliberately write in the standard Spanish of Spain, and follow all of those conventions instead, so maybe they do the same in Argentina.