Me pidió tomar su clase

[tacuba]

Buenas noches Malila:

En otro tema, dijiste que "Me pidió que tomara su clase = Me pidió tomar su clase (not my first choice, but not incorrect.)"

Bueno, ahora estoy muy confudido. Pensé que cuando hay un cambio del sujeto en la segunda cláusula, hay que poner un verbo subjuntivo en la segunda cláusula si el verbo en la primera cláusula es un verbo de deseo, imperativo, etc......

¿Me podrías explicar un poco más, por favor, porque no puedo encontrar nada de eso en las gramáticas.

[chileno]

Originally Posted by tacuba

Buenas noches Malila:

En otro tema, dijiste que "Me pidió que tomara su clase = Me pidió tomar su clase (not my first choice, but not incorrect.)"

Bueno, ahora estoy muy confudido. Pensé que cuando hay un cambio del sujeto en la segunda cláusula, hay que poner un verbo subjuntivo en la segunda cláusula si el verbo en la primera cláusula es un verbo de deseo, imperativo, etc......

¿Me podrías explicar un poco más, por favor, porque no puedo encontrar nada de eso en las gramáticas.

You know that I don't know grammar, but here I go with my "visual"

Me pidió que tomara su clase = He/She asked me that I take his/her class

Me pidió tomar su clase = He/She asked me to take his/her class

Does it help?

[tacuba]

Originally Posted by chileno

You know that I don't know grammar, but here I go with my "visual"

Me pidió que tomara su clase = He/She asked me that I take his/her class

Me pidió tomar su clase = He/She asked me to take his/her class

Does it help?

Yes. Thanks Chileno.

I guess my grammar book has it wrong then. It says:

"Some verbs can be followed by a noun clause in the subjunctive or by an infinitive without a change in meaning. An indirect object pronoun is optional if these verbs are followed by a subjunctive clause, but is obligatory when followed by the infinitive. These verbs include: aconsejar, exigir, impedir, mandar, permitir, prohibir, recomendar, rogar, sugerir."

"The verbs decir and pedir are followed by a subjunctive clause. They may occur with with an indirect object."

This was the cause of my confusion. I will take the advice of native speakers over grammar books every time.

Thanks again.

[Perikles]

Well, the trouble is that my grammar book is quite explicit here, in that you can only use pedir with an infinitive if there is no change of subject:

Pedimos ir juntos We asked to go together

i.e. we asked that we go together, no change of subject.

With a change of subject, you need the subjunctive:

No se lo digáis a Enrique Don't tell Enrique
Then: Nos ha pedido que no se lo digamos a Enrique He/She has asked us not to tell Enrique.

Here, there is a change in subject between the main clause and the subordinate clause: somebody asks us not to do something.

If the above is correct, then pidío tomar su clase can't be correct, because there is a change of subject, unless it means he asked if he (himself) could take his (own) class.

HELP

[chileno]

Originally Posted by Perikles

Well, the trouble is that my grammar book is quite explicit here, in that you can only use pedir with an infinitive if there is no change of subject:

Pedimos ir juntos We asked to go together

i.e. we asked that we go together, no change of subject.

With a change of subject, you need the subjunctive:

No se lo digáis a Enrique Don't tell Enrique
Then: Nos ha pedido que no se lo digamos a Enrique He/She has asked us not to tell Enrique.

Here, there is a change in subject between the main clause and the subordinate clause: somebody asks us not to do something.

If the above is correct, then pidío tomar su clase can't be correct, because there is a change of subject, unless it means he asked if he (himself) could take his (own) class.

HELP

I think the key word here is

"me pidió tomar su clase"

"(me) pidió que tomara su clase"

The last one depends on ???

él (me, te, le, les nos) pidió que tomara(n,mos) su clase.

Now:

Pidió tomar su clase. She/he asked her class to be taken (general announcement/recommendation to all interested)

Better?

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by chileno

Better?

I'm afraid not. If he/she says me pidió tomar su clase whom does he/she want to take the class? He or me?

[chileno]

Originally Posted by Perikles

I'm afraid not. If he/she says me pidió tomar su clase whom does he/she want to take the class? He or me?

Ok, context:

You and I are talking in school, and the teacher (male/female) passes by, either one of us could say "me pidió tomar su clase", while looking at the teacher, or making a motion of the lips to indicate the teacher etc....

Does it help?

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by chileno

Does it help?

No - even more baffling.

[chileno]

Originally Posted by chileno

Ok, context:

You and I are talking in school, and the teacher (male/female) passes by, either one of us could say "me pidió tomar su clase", while looking at the teacher, or making a motion of the lips to indicate the teacher etc....

Does it help?

Originally Posted by Perikles

No - even more baffling.

Check post #8 from the following link: http://forums.tomisimo.org/showthrea...ight=posesivos

I hope it helps.

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

@Tacuba: It is true that the subject change needs a subjunctive, while a sentence with the same subject needs an infinitive. If you keep the rule, you won't miss.
Still, although the subjunctive with the same subject sounds rather clumsy, I hear the infinitive with a different subject used more often, and it doesn't feel that awkward to me.

@Perikles: Amphibology is a bit forced here. One would assume that the subject is the same in "me pidió tomar su clase" only if there were a clear context where something impedes the teacher from taking her own class. But in most cases, "me pidió tomar su clase" would be understood as her asking me to do the work.

[tacuba]

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

@Tacuba:
Still, although the subjunctive with the same subject sounds rather clumsy, I hear the infinitive with a different subject used more often, and it doesn't feel that awkward to me.

Thanks Malila:

I'm sorry if I'm being a little "menso" here, but could you explain what you mean in the above? When you say "I hear the infinitive with a different subject used more often...." what exactly are you referring to? Could you give some examples?

Thanks ahead of time

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

Oh no, please don't say that. You're not "menso" at all. It's rather that I was "torpe" for explaining.

I just meant that people use this infinitive instead of subjunctive quite often.



But some notes:

Sentences that use subjunctive with the same subject sound clumsy and should be expressed with an infinitive:
- (Yo) No quiero que me vaya tarde. -> No quiero irme tarde.
I don't want to leave late.
- ¿(Tú)Quieres que (tú) veas la tele? -> ¿Quieres ver la tele?
Do you want to watch TV?


The sentences with different subjects are expressed with a subjunctive:
- (Yo) Quiero que (él/ella) vaya a la fiesta.
I want him/her to go to the party.
- Juan espera que (nosotros) estemos juntos cuando (él) llegue.
Juan expects us to be together when he arrives.


However, there are cases where there are different subjects, but the subjunctive can be changed by an infinitive, and speakers aren't specially bothered:
- Es necesario que (tú) hables con su familia. ≈ Es necesario hablar con su familia.
It's necessary that you talk to his/her family.
- (Él) Ordenó que (ellos) se callaran. ≈ Ordenó callarse.
He ordered that they shut up.
- (Ella) Insiste en que (nosotros) vayamos todos. ≈ Insiste en ir todos.
She insists that we all go.
- La recomendación fue que (ella/él) se tomara la medicina. ≈ La recomendación fue tomarse la medicina.
The recommendation was that he/she should take the medicine.
- (Ellos) Me sugirieron (a mí) que no lo comprara. ≈ Me sugirieron no comprarlo.
They suggested me not to buy it.

[chileno]

Ok, here is why I say that transcribing a novel is beneficial/of benefit

I am going to use Angélicas's examples: Of the following examples, I do not know if the ones I marked with the are "gramatically" correct. I also marked with a the ones that are correct according to me, and you wouldn't catch me not even dead using the other way.

Sentences that use subjunctive with the same subject sound clumsy and should be expressed with an infinitive:
- (Yo) No quiero que me vaya tarde. -> No quiero irme tarde.
I don't want to leave late.
- ¿(Tú)Quieres que (tú) veas la tele? -> ¿Quieres ver la tele?
Do you want to watch TV?



The sentences with different subjects are expressed with a subjunctive:
- (Yo) Quiero que (él/ella) vaya a la fiesta.
I want him/her to go to the party.
- Juan espera que (nosotros) estemos juntos cuando (él) llegue.
Juan expects us to be together when he arrives.


On the following examples I am making marks, marks and corrections, again according to me:

However, there are cases where there are different subjects, but the subjunctive can be changed by an infinitive, and speakers aren't specially bothered:
- Es necesario que (tú) hables con su familia. ≈ It's necessary that you talk to his/her family.
-Es necesario hablar con su familia. = It's necessary to talk to his/her family. (anyone)
- (Él) Ordenó que (ellos) se callaran. ≈ He ordered that they shut up.
-Ordenó callarse. = She/he ordered to shut up.

- (Ella) Insiste en que (nosotros) vayamos todos. ≈ She insists that we all go.
-Insiste en ir todos.
-Insiste en ir. = She/he insists in going

- La recomendación fue que (ella/él) se tomara la medicina. ≈ The recommendation was that he/she should take the medicine.
-La recomendación fue tomarse la medicina. = The recommendation was to take the medicine.

- (Ellos) Me sugirieron (a mí) que no lo comprara. ≈ -They suggested that I did not buy it.
- Me sugirieron no comprarlo. - They suggested me not to buy it.

Way off?

[laepelba]

WOW - I just stumbled on this. Quite fascinating conversation. The context was this: my colleague called me one morning to ask me to sit in her classroom during the first period because she would be a few minutes late. She asked ME to cover her class for her. Does that help the context?

[chileno]

Originally Posted by laepelba

WOW - I just stumbled on this. Quite fascinating conversation. The context was this: my colleague called me one morning to ask me to sit in her classroom during the first period because she would be a few minutes late. She asked ME to cover her class for her. Does that help the context?

She asked ME to cover her class for her. = Ella me pidió cubrir su clase por ella/Ella me pidió que hiciera la/su clase por ella.

Might help the context of what was being covered in the other topic. I am not sure if it will help tacuba.

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

@Perikles: Amphibology is a bit forced here. One would assume that the subject is the same in "me pidió tomar su clase" only if there were a clear context where something impedes the teacher from taking her own class. But in most cases, "me pidió tomar su clase" would be understood as her asking me to do the work.

Many thanks for that .

Off-topic, but amphibology (of Greek root) is one of those correct English words which is never used. In fact the BNC has zero hits, whereas the synonym (from a Latin root) ambiguity has 847 hits. I had never heard the word until you used it some months ago.

[chileno]

Originally Posted by Perikles

Many thanks for that .

Off-topic, but amphibology (of Greek root) is one of those correct English words which is never used. In fact the BNC has zero hits, whereas the synonym (from a Latin root) ambiguity has 847 hits. I had never heard the word until you used it some months ago.

I guess ambiguous is used instead.

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

@Perikles: thank you.
Oh well. I think, just like "to elide", "amphibology" is rather jargon for linguistic-related studies. I learnt some of those words a long time ago in Spanish and I think I tend to overuse them in other languages. I'll put them away in some drawer.

[Vikingo]

Hi tacuba,

you need to distinguish between two types of verbs of influence in this case: one in which there often can be the same subject in both parts of the phrase, for example "querer", "desear", "necesitar", etc.

The other one, which Borrego & Co calls "verbos de mando", the subjects almost never coincide, since people don't normally order themselves around or give themselves permission etc. (unless, of course, we're talking to ourselves, but let's ignore that for now). These are verbs like "mandar", "permitir", "prohibir", etc.

In the latter case, verbos de mando, you can quite often choose between using the subjunctive and using the infinitive. The subjunctive is almost always fine, but not absolutely all verbs can go with the infinitive. Which ones are up for debate, and depends on the use and regional differences etc. Borrego et al give a few examples of verbs where they prefer the subjunctive:

Le suplicó perdonarlo (?)
Le aconsejó perdonarlo (?)
Le pidió perdonarlo (??)
Le rogó perdonarlo (??)

Where (?) is "Secuencia poco recomendable, de aceptabilidad discutible", and (??) is "Secuencia de muy dudosa aceptabilidad".

With "decir", however, you can't use the infinitive in these cases. That's because it's a verb of communication, although it role may be one of "verbo de mando": * Me dijo ir al cine.

Bouzet (Grammaire espagnole) cites the verbs "encargar, aconsejar, rogar, suplicar, persuadir, recomendar, encomendar" as being unable to use infinitive.

Saludos

[hermit]

Having learned Spanish primarily from Latin Americans, it doesn't sound strange to me at all...