If not

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

Ok... I think I follow. But none of what you said introduces "aunque"... Would you say there are cases in which this "if not" could mean "although"? :thinking:

[chileno]

Right.

Although, like you have pointed out to, in this case it gives the possibility of by the fact of having money there is a chance to also build a great reputation, but it is not guaranteed.

That's what I understand by it.

Am I right or left?

[JPablo]

Great fortunes, if not great reputations, are made...
My book translates this sentence into: se hacen grandes fortunas, aunque no gran reputación...

I understand just the opposite: se hacen/se crean grandes fortunas, cuando no/por no decir, grandes reputaciones...
:)

I understand the rationale pj33 is exposing and while he is right, the Spanish from the book seems, nonetheless, wrong.
I believe we need a bit more context to be able to fully ascertain if the translation must be like the following versions,

A1. Se hacen grandes fortunas, si es que no [se hacen] grandes reputaciones...
A2. Se hacen grandes fortunas, si no son grandes reputaciones [lo que se hace]...
A3. Se hacen grandes fortunas, si no son grandes reputaciones...

Or we need to go with,

B1. Se hacen grandes fortunas, aunque no grandes reputaciones...

B1. version would make the book right, and translate as in the examples given in Brians Errors, which translates as "aunque" in Spanish. :)


“He was smart if not exactly brilliant.” In this sort of expression, “if not” links a weaker with a stronger word with a related meaning. Other examples: “unattractive if not downright ugly,” “reasonably priced if not exactly cheap,” “interested if not actually excited.”

But this sort of “if not” is often misused to link words that don’t form a weaker/stronger pair: “obscure if not boring,” “happy if not entertained,” “anxious if not afraid.” The linked terms in these examples do have some logical relationship, but they do not form a weaker/stronger pair.

[Maybe if pjt33 or Perikles come fresh and you give some more context, this 'conundrum' can be solved for good, and for the good of everyone... :)]

(Looking over again, after [I]thinking aloud here, I am more and more inclined for the "aunque" version... but I think we need a native to confirm it...) (And the singular of "reputación" may also have a reason, after all...) :hmm:

[Vikingo]

Interesting case, that "if not". I think it can both negate what follows, or confirm it. If we remove "exactly" from two of the examples quoted by JPablo above, I find them all more or less ambiguous. (Or is it just me?)

Here's what the Oxford Spanish Dictionary says:
---
They were undernourished, if not (yet) actually starving: estaban desnutridos, si bien no se estaban muriendo de inanición.

She was very offhand, if not downright rude: estuvo muy brusca, por no decir verdaderamente grosera.
---

Notice the "(yet)" to make the meaning clear, and that both the examples are with "weaker/stronger pairs".

When the pairs are unrelated, I find it more natural to interpret what follows "if not" as a negation, though, as irmamar's book did.

Saludos :)

[irmamar]

You can read it here (http://books.google.es/books?id=lANfu4yo0P4C&pg=PA337&lpg=PA337&dq=%22Great+fortunes,+if+not+great+reputations,+ar e+made%22&source=bl&ots=aqEXdpL0cM&sig=f8_iGD4s4bUhPccP11ks8KRfPC4&hl=es&ei=u_gJTJ-mJ4uX4gazwvW4AQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBsQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22Great%20fortunes%2C%20if%20not%20great%20repu tations%2C%20are%20made%22&f=false).

[Vikingo]

Fantastic. I find it totally ambiguous - reputation in the eyes of other authors or grownups? Probably lacking. Reputation in the eyes of the schoolboys they are writing for? Probably good. Who knows what he's trying to say? I give up :)

[JPablo]

Well, the context of the book gives all the reason to pjt33 and the translation of the book. Or at least, that is the way I get it.

Se hacen grandes fortunas, aunque no grandes reputaciones, (nos enteramos) escribiendo literatura infantil...

En otras palabras, el autor del libro, Henry James, no estaba muy contento con la situación de una "literatura barata para chicos" con la que sus autores podían lograr una fortuna (a base de venderlas como rosquillas) AUNQUE NO una reputación, es decir la reputación que lograba un escritor así, era la de "ser comercial", no lo que llamaríamos una [buena] reputación. Si yo me pongo a escribir literatura-basura me puedo forrar a vender, pero no me consigo una reputación [buena]. Creo que el original tiene implicada la idea de "buena".

So, correct me if I am wrong, but after all, the book had the right idea/translation. :rolleyes:

I would go with something like,
Vemos que [nos enteramos de que] se hacen grandes fortunas, aunque no [se logra] una reputación muy buena, escribiendo literatura infantil...

[Perikles]

Out of context, the expression is ambiguous. What I think Henry James is saying, having read the whole paragraph, is that not only great fortunes, but also great reputations can be made. I still think the Spanish book is incorrect.

I find Irish literature very difficult because there are idiosyncracies which lead to this kind of misunderstanding. But taking it to be actual English, this is what it probably means.

Edit: I have now waded through the rest of the article, which seems specifically designed to be as obscure as possible, and probably the very worst kind of English prose for anyone to try and undertand as a second language. Fortunately, there were only a few pages accessible to me, but from what I read I gather he is lamenting the volume of fiction written produced at the cost of quality. Considering that authors can have a reputation even for bad style, I still think the above is what he meant.

[JPablo]

Out of context, the expression is ambiguous. What I think Henry James is saying, having read the whole paragraph, is that not only great fortunes, but also great reputations can be made. I still think the Spanish book is incorrect.

I find Irish literature very difficult because there are idiosyncracies which lead to this kind of misunderstanding. But taking it to be actual English, this is what it probably means.

Hi, Perikles, I get what you write and I understand that this is one acceptable option. However... :hmm:I don't want to be a pest or a pain in the neck, if not terribly hard to please/so choosy and so fuzzy.
In this very sentence I just wrote, "if not" is adding "insult to injury", i.e., I am a pain in the neck BUT ALSO I am very fuzzy and choosy. (Even though I am saying "I don't want to be it".)
It is like in the Oxford bilingual (Superlex)
she was very offhand, if not downright rude = estuvo muy brusca, por no decir verdaderamente grosera
Another nuance (also Superlex)
they were undernourished, if not (yet) actually starving = estaban desnutridos, si bien no se estaban muriendo de inanición;

If one reads more of the context, not just the paragraph, I think one may get the ambiguity solved.

Great fortunes, if not great reputations, are made, we learn, by writing for schoolboys, and the period during which they consume the compound artfully

Se hacen grandes fortunas, si bien no reputaciones magníficas,
Se hacen grandes fortunas, por no decir reputaciones magníficas,

These two translations mean the opposite, yet, both are 'correct'. And the book seems to be 'correct' or at least not downright wrong, in the context of what I said before...

I do not like to leave a "maybe" in my mind, but at this point, I feel certainly, positively sure of the ambiguity, that you could go either way, you you could not be wrong, if not [otherwise/else] right. QED.

(Conclusion: we fully agree on your first statement, "Out of context, the expression is ambiguous." No kidding!) :rolleyes: :)

[Perikles]

Se hacen grandes fortunas, si bien no reputaciones magníficas,
Se hacen grandes fortunas, por no decir reputaciones magníficas,

These two translations mean the opposite, yet, both are 'correct'. And the book seems to be 'correct' or at least not downright wrong, in the context of what I said before...

But the book says se hacen grandes fortunas, aunque no gran reputación which is explicitly denying the making of a reputation. I just don't see how that can be correct in context. (Note the edit in my post above by the way) :thinking:

[JPablo]

But the book says which is explicitly denying the making of a reputation. I just don't see how that can be correct in context. (Note the edit in my post above by the way) :thinking:

Thank you for your edition/addition in the previous post. It is more helpful than trying to read the full context.

I think the simplicity of the idea is:
You can make money (with bad literature) as well as a BAD reputation.
You can make money (with bad literature) although you cannot make a GOOD reputation.

The bottom line on this riddle and how it could work "both ways" is regarding how one understands the word "reputation" (implying either good or bad).
I.e., "aunque no una reputación [buena]" or "si bien una reputación [mala]".

Not sure if I explain myself, but finally, I got it. (And I agree, with you fully on what we call in Spanish "prosa farragosa" "cumbersome prose".)

[Perikles]

Your interpretation sounds pretty good to me. :)

[JPablo]

Thank you! :) (I call it a day!)
(This was quite an interesting exercise, if not a great one... Wow, wow, wow! Don't start again!!) :D