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-   -   Las amenazaban las lágrimas (https://forums.tomisimo.org/showthread.php?t=27044)

Las amenazaban las lágrimas


Tyrn June 10, 2021 03:17 AM

Las amenazaban las lágrimas
 
Sintió que las amenazaban las lágrimas

The context is unequivocal: it's a person who feels like crying. Why las?

poli June 10, 2021 05:05 PM

It's more than one person about to cry.
She or he felt that tears were menacing them ( I assume that means were on the verge of tears)

Rusty June 10, 2021 05:57 PM

I agree with Tyrn's assertion that a solitary person was feeling that tears were threatening.

A so-called redundant direct object pronoun appears in this sentence, which is the crux of the question being asked here.
The threat (the harm about to occur) is expressed by the direct object (the tears). There could also be an indirect object, indicating who is being threatened, but it's been omitted, since its referent is the subject (who is a woman, by the way).

Throwing in a redundant object pronoun is a common practice. Here it serves to emphasize the threat, since the next sentence in the book (not given above) has her tears stinging her eyes and her nose.

Tyrn June 11, 2021 04:57 AM

Thanks! I am not quite sure how this sentence should look like without the redundant object pronoun :thinking:

Rusty June 11, 2021 07:03 AM

Just remove it. It is only there for emphasis. Without it, the sentence still means the same thing.

AngelicaDeAlquezar June 11, 2021 09:47 PM

I think this was a typo.
Although it could be the case of a redundant DO, I think it should have been "lo/la amenazaban las lágrimas". Printing errors happen. :)

Rusty June 11, 2021 11:05 PM

The English sentence, the source used for the Spanish translation appearing in the initial post, has a woman playing the role of subject.

If we throw out the idea of a redundant direct object pronoun, we'd be ruling in the possibility of having an indirect object pronoun to indicate whom is being threatened. Shouldn't 'le' be the substitute in that case?

AngelicaDeAlquezar June 15, 2021 04:05 PM

If this is a woman, then it's "la amenazaban las lágrimas".
If we say "le amenazaban las lágrimas", this would be a case of "leísmo". :)
The verb "amenazar" takes a DO.

Rusty June 15, 2021 06:14 PM

The subject of sentir is a woman, according to the context in the book from which the sentence was taken.
If we're to assume that a typo was introduced, I see 'las lágrimas' as being the direct object of amenazar and the threatened woman as the indirect object (DPD, construction 1b). If the DO is the contextual woman (construction 1a, in the DPD), then the threat (las lágrimas) needs to be preceded by either the preposition con or de.

AngelicaDeAlquezar June 15, 2021 10:45 PM

This is difficult.
I think "las lágrimas" is the subject of the sentence, as they perform the action of the verb "amenazar". And the woman is the DO, the thing/person on whom the verb is performed. The first entry in the DPD says the DO is the person who receives the threat. :thinking:

A esta mujer la amenazaban las lágrimas. = Las lágrimas amenazaban a esta mujer.
La amenazaban las lágrimas. = Las lágrimas la amenazaban.

Some other examples:
- Una voz me amenazó por teléfono (a mí).
- El vecino ha amenazado a los niños con quitarles la pelota. -> El vecino los ha amenazado.
- Hay un gato que amenaza con comerse a todas las lagartijas del jardín. -> El gato amenaza a todas las lagartijas del jardín. = El gato las amenaza.
- Los nuevos grupos delictivos amenazan la paz de nuestras ciudades. -> La amenazan


Now, to my mind, the OD is the harm and the indirect object is the person, only in impersonal sentences or when the IO is not mentioned; but in the original example, there is a clear subject and a clear person being threatened. :thinking:
- El cielo amenaza lluvia. -> The threat is the rain, which becomes the OD, although here we don't need a specific person to be threatened.
- A las mujeres se les amenazó que si denunciaban, las matarían. -> We don't have a subject here.
- Es muy fácil hacer que los empresarios nos apoyen; se les amenaza cobrarles impuestos y ya. -> Although it's implicit we will threaten the businesspeople, the sentence is formally an impersonal one.

Rusty June 16, 2021 12:29 AM

Ah, when the tears serve as the subject of the clause, it's easy to see how the woman can be the direct object.
Thanks.

AngelicaDeAlquezar June 16, 2021 04:09 PM

And thank you. I had never thought about how this verb works. :D


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