Two mistakes I keep making

[laepelba]

As I am working through my exercise books, I find that I keep making the same mistakes, and I'm not sure why. Here are some sample sentences from each of the two types of mistakes:

Mistake #1:
Ella siempre le miente a su novio.
Les doy clases de inglés a los extranjeros.
El dueño te busca para que le pagues el alquiler.
Les decimos a Juan y Tomás que tengan cuidado.
Juan le dice a su hijo que no vaya a las montañas mañana.
My issue: I can never tell when I need to write the object pronoun AND the explicitly stated object, which sounds redundant to my English ears. When is it necessary and when is it not?

Mistake #2:
Ellas insisten en que vengas a la fiesta temprano.
Él insiste en que empieces la tarea pronto.
My issue: I can't seem to figure out when to use "en". Is it only with certain verbs?

Thank you for any suggestions you can offer!!! (This message is being typed from a boat on the Rio de la Plata, traveling from Buenos Aires, Argentina to Colonia, Uruguay!)

[aleCcowaN]

#1 For instance, to me "decir algo" is stating repeatedly an opinion and "decirle algo a alguien" is saying something to a person or for the sake of that person. Classes, speech, lies, payments, all or it must be aimed to somebody. You may state it some other place in the sentence --> "Les pidió que se callaran y (les) dijo «blah blah blah»". "Le dijo a él", "les dijo a ellas", "dijo a la multitud" -as it is a "mass", "les" is not required-.

#2 verbs that are meant as a repeated action or permanent position: insistir, persistir, mantenerse ...

Te tocó un hermoso día -yo estoy unos 140 km al sur de vos, y el solcito te hace olvidar los mordiscones que te da el aire frío-.

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN

#1 For instance, to me "decir algo" is stating repeatedly an opinion and "decirle algo a alguien" is saying something to a person or for the sake of that person. Classes, speech, lies, payments, all or it must be aimed to somebody. You may state it some other place in the sentence --> "Les pidió que se callaran y (les) dijo «blah blah blah»". "Le dijo a él", "les dijo a ellas", "dijo a la multitud" -as it is a "mass", "les" is not required-.

#2 verbs that are meant as a repeated action or permanent position: insistir, persistir, mantenerse ...

Te tocó un hermoso día -yo estoy unos 140 km al sur de vos, y el solcito te hace olvidar los mordiscones que te da el aire frío-.

Sorry, Alec, I don't understand your explanations. I also don't understand what you said in the last part except that you are 140 km south of me and something about cold air. Thank you for trying. I'm somewhat thick headed..... :-/

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by laepelba

Mistake #2:
Ellas insisten en que vengas a la fiesta temprano.
Él insiste en que empieces la tarea pronto.
My issue: I can't seem to figure out when to use "en". Is it only with certain verbs?

As an attempt at an answer to this question, I think it is simply a question of verb/preposition collocations. You have to use en after certain verbs, simple as that.


Either: with certain verbs to mean "in" or "on": Competer en, to compete in; concentrarse en, to concentrate on; concurrir en, to concur in; confiar en, to trust in; creer en, to believe in; empeñarse en, to persist in; esperar en, to trust in; insistir en, to insist on; intervenir en, to participate in; persistir en, to persist in; reflejar en, to reflect on; resultar en, to result in.
Or: with certain verbs to have other meanings: Adentrarse en, to get into; advertir en, to notice; aplicarse en, to devote oneself to; coincidir en que, to agree that; comprometerse en, to get involved with; concurrir en, to meet at; consentir en, to agree to; consistir en, to be composed of; convenir en, to agree to; convertir(se) en, to change into; equivocarse en, to be mistaken about; extenderse en, to spread over; fijarse en, to notice; ingresar en, to be admitted to; inscribirse en, to register for; juntarse en, to meet at; molestarse en, to bother by; pensar en, to think about; quedar en que, to agree that; reparar en, to notice; vacilar en, to hesitate to.

Perhaps the most common in the above is pensar en, which does not mean the same as pensar

[laepelba]

Okay - I am finally back in the States and have more regular access to internet, and am catching up on my email and reading and things.....

I am still left without understanding these things. For example, Alec: "dijo a la multitud" -as it is a "mass", "les" is not required- - I don't get that at all, and it indicates that I don't understand the rest of your explanation...... :-/

Perikles, I didn't know that "pensar" and "pensar en" were different.... I would understand if you just need to know that certain verbs use certain prepositions, but I can't begin to imagine the difference in meaning between "pensar" and "pensar en"...... :-/

Sorry, all - I am definitely a bit thick.....

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by laepelba

Perikles, I didn't know that "pensar" and "pensar en" were different.... I would understand if you just need to know that certain verbs use certain prepositions, but I can't begin to imagine the difference in meaning between "pensar" and "pensar en"...... :-/

But surely- "pensar" can mean the process of thinking, "pienso, luego existo", cogito ergo sum, but also to have an opinion about something, whereas "pensar en" means to think about something. I see two different mental activities here.

¿en qué piensas? = what are you thinking about?
¿qué piensas? = what do you think = what is your opinion?

[laepelba]

Oh - okay, I see what you mean. Thanks! I'm still not wrapping my head around either of these concepts ... I'll keep plugging along on it....... :-/

[Luna Azul]

My issue: I can never tell when I need to write the object pronoun AND the explicitly stated object, which sounds redundant to my English ears. When is it necessary and when is it not?

1. - @laepelba: You're not too wrong: those are called "redundant pronouns".

There's a difference in the way you use the Indirect Object in English and Spanish:

I gave a book to my sister - I gave her a book.

In Spanish the way to say the second sentence is "Le dí un libro".

As opposed to English, you have to use the pronoun even if you mention the Indirect Object: "Le di un libro a mi hermana"

Juana nos invitó a cenar a su casa = Juana nos invitó a Luis y a mí a cenar a su casa

(Yo) les voy a regalar el cuadro = Yo les voy a regalar el cuadro a Juan y a María.

My issue: I can't seem to figure out when to use "en". Is it only with certain verbs?

2.- In Spanish, as it happens in English, some verbs require a preposition. So, the preposition you use whether it is 'en' or another one, depends on the verb. Here's a web page that might help you what preposition to use with the different verbs:

http://www.elearnspanishlanguage.com...swithprep.html

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by Luna Azul

1. - @laepelba: You're not too wrong: those are called "redundant pronouns".

There's a difference in the way you use the Indirect Object in English and Spanish:

I gave a book to my sister - I gave her a book.

In Spanish the way to say the second sentence is "Le dí un libro".

As opposed to English, you have to use the pronoun even if you mention the Indirect Object: "Le di un libro a mi hermana"

Juana nos invitó a cenar a su casa = Juana nos invitó a Luis y a mí a cenar a su casa

(Yo) les voy a regalar el cuadro = Yo les voy a regalar el cuadro a Juan y a María.

I follow that thinking. It's just that I don't see that construction used every single time ... only sometimes. So, when I try to use an IO pronoun AND a specifically mentioned indirect object in a phrase, my Spanish speaking friends often correct me and tell me to leave out the pronoun... I can't figure out when to do it, and when not to do it.

Originally Posted by Luna Azul

2.- In Spanish, as it happens in English, some verbs require a preposition. So, the preposition you use whether it is 'en' or another one, depends on the verb. Here's a web page that might help you what preposition to use with the different verbs:

http://www.elearnspanishlanguage.com...swithprep.html

Thanks - that link is helpful!!

[Luna Azul]

Originally Posted by laepelba

So, when I try to use an IO pronoun AND a specifically mentioned indirect object in a phrase, my Spanish speaking friends often correct me and tell me to leave out the pronoun... I can't figure out when to do it, and when not to do it.

Please, give me an example of a sentence they have corrected.

[chileno]

Originally Posted by laepelba

..., my Spanish speaking friends often correct me and tell me to leave out the pronoun... I can't figure out when to do it, and when not to do it.

You also have to understand that just like in English, people talk Spanish in a different way than what it supposed to be written.

Of course, that's not an excuse not to know grammar...(like I don't)

[jrandlib]

Originally Posted by laepelba

As I am working through my exercise books, I find that I keep making the same mistakes, and I'm not sure why.

Thank you for any suggestions you can offer!!! (This message is being typed from a boat on the Rio de la Plata, traveling from Buenos Aires, Argentina to Colonia, Uruguay!)

Put up the workbook and enjoy the ride! Sounds llike a lovely trip.
Have fun

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by Luna Azul

Please, give me an example of a sentence they have corrected.

I can't think of one right now, but I will try to pay attention the next time it happens & will come back to this thread and will let you know!

Originally Posted by jrandlib

Put up the workbook and enjoy the ride! Sounds llike a lovely trip.
Have fun

I DID have a lot of fun!! But in between events and meals, etc., I was working on my Spanish workbook because my travel companion is Peruvian, and could offer input on certain things. (But her patience for my "why?" questions, and my "can you give me more examples?" was shorter with me than all'y'all's patience with me!! )

[Luna Azul]

Originally Posted by laepelba

I can't think of one right now, but I will try to pay attention the next time it happens & will come back to this thread and will let you know!

Ok. That will help me to help you (hopefully )

[laepelba]

Okay, so here are some more examples of "mistake #1" - when to be redundant with the pronoun and stated object, and when not to be so. The following three sentences are from an exercise about indirect object pronouns...

4) English sentence: I don't give her money.
The book has: No le doy dinero.
I wrote: No le doy dinero a ella.

9) English sentence: If you don't ask me questions, I don't tell you lies. (Instructions are to use ustedes.)
The book has: Si no me hacen preguntas, no les digo mentiras.
I wrote: Si Uds. no me hacen preguntas, yo no les digo mentiras a Uds..

10) English sentence: We don't lend them money.
The book has: No les prestamos dinero.
I wrote: No les prestamos dinero a ellos.

My main question is whether the phrases in blue (1) are necessary, (2) don't sound right, and (3) common usage (in the case that either way is grammatically correct...).

Thanks!!

[aleCcowaN]

Originally Posted by laepelba

My main question is whether the phrases in blue (1) are necessary, (2) don't sound right, and (3) common usage (in the case that either way is grammatically correct...).

Thanks!!

They are superfluous, unless the dialogue may imply some ambiguity or it is needed a clear subject:

Vinieron los del norte y les prestamos dinero. Luego vinieron los del sur, pero a ellos no les prestamos.

Sentences like "Si Uds. no me hacen preguntas, yo no les digo mentiras a Uds.." sound a bit awkward because we don't use that way to convey that meaning and the pronoun is crystal clear in the beginning of the sentence, and even unnecessary.

"Mira, no me hagan preguntas y no les diré mentiras. Si tú en particular estás molesta, ya deberías saber que tengo instrucciones precisas de mi jefe sobre como manejar esta clase de asuntos. Su furia será siempre peor que la tuya"

[laepelba]

Helpful! Thanks, Alec!

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

I agree these "extras" are usually superfluous, although they can be used for emphasizing what you're saying:

·Yo no le doy dinero. -> You're emphasizing it's not me who is giving her money.
·No le doy dinero a ella. -> You're denying you give money to her specifically, but maybe you give money to someone else.
·Yo no le doy dinero a ella. -> You may be refusing to give her money because of a deep despise for her, or perhaps you want to state clearly she is not receiving money from yourself.
(Number 3 is more or less the same as number 1.)

·Si ustedes no me hacen preguntas a mí, yo no les digo mentiras a ustedes. -> Using both personal pronouns emphasizes the relationship between you all and me when you start asking me questions.