Redundant Pronouns

[Benmichles]

So why is it that in Spanish that you have to use an indirect object pronoun in sentences like these


Te Recomiendo que hagas galletas

Why do you have to put the indirect object pronoun te i there. It just seems like it is just redundant.

Because when you put the te it is saying.....I recommend to you that you make cookies.

So I just dont understand why you wouldnt say. Recomiendo que hagas galletas.
Because then it would say.....I recommend that you make cookies.




The same issue arises with this sentence. El professor les dice a los estudiantes que estudien.

The les in there is just being redundant. Because to me this is just saying the teacher tells them to study to the students.

I dont understand why you have to put these pronouns in there.

An explanation of this would be appreciated.

[Rusty]

The redundancy is not redundancy. It is perfectly good Spanish grammar and should be embraced, as this is how the language is used.


There is an established pattern (for lack of the grammatical term, if any) for how Spanish verbs are used. I find it better to memorize the pattern, rather than just the infinitive. The pattern helps you to know whether the verb takes a direct object, an indirect object or both, and it also shows if there is a preposition needed after the verb.

The two cases you mentioned have the following patterns:
recomendarle a alguien algo
decirle a alguien algo

Both of the infinitives have a suffixed indirect object pronoun ('le') and an indirect object ('a alguien'). This means that the verb, when conjugated, will have an indirect object pronoun that corresponds to the person and, if needed to dispel ambiguity or to add emphasis where no ambiguity exists, an indirect object, preceded by the preposition 'a'.
The 'algo' in the pattern indicates that the verb takes a direct object. The direct object may be a noun or it may be a noun clause, as it is in both of your example sentences. When a noun clause is used, it's introduced with the conjunction 'que'. The clause contains both a subject and a verb.

If a noun is used as the direct object instead of a noun clause, I think it'll help answer your question.
Let's say you want to recommend a movie to your friend. You would say, "Te recomiendo la película." As you can see, an indirect object pronoun is used, after adjusting for person. To add emphasis, you could add the indirect object "a ti." (You could omit the indirect object pronoun and use the indirect object instead, but it's much more common to use the pronoun.)
Now, if you change the noun in the direct object to a noun clause, which has a subject and a verb, you should not break the verb usage pattern. The indirect object is still a requirement, despite what the noun clause might contain. For example:
"Te recomiendo que veas la película."
-or-
"Recomiendo a ti que veas la película."
-or, adding emphasis (because there is no ambiguity)-
"Te recomiendo a ti que veas la película."


To harp more about my preference for memorizing usage patterns, I'll give you a few more things to think about.

The verbs that take only a direct object have a different usage pattern:
ver algo | ver a alguien
buscar algo | buscar a alguien
gozar de algo/alguien

The first two patterns have two formats, one for a direct object that is a thing ('algo') and another for a direct object that is a person ('a alguien'). For example:
Veo las nubes.
Veo a Juan.
Buscamos las llaves.
Busco a la doña de la casa.

The third pattern indicates the need for a particular preposition that must precede the direct object, whether it's a thing or a person. For example:
Ella goza de buena salud.
Gozo de ella.

As you know, neither the 'personal a' in the personal patterns, nor the preposition 'de' in the third pattern, have an English equivalent. We translate those sentences as "I see John" and "She enjoys good health."

The pattern for 'buscar' lets us know that a preposition we need to use in English isn't used in Spanish. "We're looking for the keys." "I'm searching for the lady of the house."

Usage patterns rock!

[Benmichles]

Ok....first of all thanks for the reply. I understand perfectly in you example where you replace the noun clause with simply a noun.(te recomiendo la película.) that makes since. But ultimately what my question comes down to is why is it that if you have a conjugated verb that you also have to put the indirect object pronoun. I mean.......te recomiendo que veas la película. The conjugated verb in the noun clause is already indicating " to who" in effect.


Now....if you replaced the noun clause with "it" then I would definitely understand because you would be saying....te lo recomiendo which means...... I recommend it to you. But with the noun clause not replaced and a conjugated verb it seems as though is already clear as to who because "ver" is already conjugated.

[Rusty]

I understand what you're trying to say, but you can't make the verb behave differently. The verb usage pattern doesn't allow you to make any assumption about the indirect object. It must be explicitly stated, and there are two ways to do so, neither of which includes an assumption that the subject in the noun clause is the indirect object.

That said, have a look at another usage pattern for 'recomendar'.

recomendar algo
Here there is just a direct object. This verb means 'to recommend something', usually some kind of action. This is a call to action. The earlier pattern means 'to recommend something to someone'.

The action can be conveyed with a noun clause. So, it's valid to say "Recomiendo que veas la película."

This isn't the same as recommending something to someone. It is a call to action. "I recommend you watch the movie." If this seems like the same thing as "I recommend it to you," it isn't. This is the same thing as "I recommend you do it."

We can extend the sentence containing the noun clause to, "I recommend you watch the movie before reading the book." You are not recommending the movie to anyone. You are recommending that an action be taken.

[Elaina]

Originally Posted by Benmichles

Ok....first of all thanks for the reply. I understand perfectly in you example where you replace the noun clause with simply a noun.(te recomiendo la película.) that makes since. But ultimately what my question comes down to is why is it that if you have a conjugated verb that you also have to put the indirect object pronoun. I mean.......te recomiendo que veas la película. The conjugated verb in the noun clause is already indicating " to who" in effect.


Now....if you replaced the noun clause with "it" then I would definitely understand because you would be saying....te lo recomiendo which means...... I recommend it to you. But with the noun clause not replaced and a conjugated verb it seems as though is already clear as to who because "ver" is already conjugated.

Hi!

Different languages have different grammar rules....why question it? Sometimes that's just the way it is. Maybe you have a different idea as to how it should be, but you are using grammar rules of a different language > English.
Randy explained it perfectly. Embrace the language with its nuances and crazy grammar rules.