Voz Media Summary

[Quaeso]

Hi, this is a little summary of a difficult grammatical idea that we spoke about in this thread. The purpose of this is not to ask a question but mostly to organize the idea in my mind, and to submit the idea for your review. Hopefully I can explain things in a way that is understandable.

So it's clear that in Greek, the Middle Voice often has its own distinct form in its verbs. This 'Middle Voice' is called Middle because it is somewhere between Active and Passive, and is essentially reflexive. In Latin, which inherited much of its grammar and vocabulary from Greek, there is no distinct middle verb form, but there are several special Latin verbs that have a passive form, but a reflexive meaning; e.g., corpus curatur = el cuerpo se cura = "the body heals itself." This reflexive meaning seen in Latin with the passive verb is also called by grammarians the 'Middle Voice'.

As Spanish develops, it brings this with it, but the passive forms (baked into Latin verbs) also gradually disappear, and the Middle Voice (reflexive in meaning and passive in form) changes into a transitive pronominal (a transitive verb with a pronoun; e.g., el cuerpo se cura = "the body heals itself"). Then this transitive pronominal construction began to be thought of as an intransitive meaning (el cuerpo se cura = "the body heals" = "the body becomes healed", instead of "the body heals itself") or cansarse ("to get tired" instead of purely "to tire oneself"), cerrarse ("to close" instead of purely "to close itself"), and then a debate began if this new intransitive meaning was acceptable, or if it should remain simply the transitive plus pronoun reflexive. [Let me know if I should explain the terms transitive and intransitive.]

So because of the controversy which continues today, the RAE wishes to avoid the term "Middle Voice" entirely, but uses an idea which is similar, but not debated, called the 'Middle Construction', which involves either a transitive pronominal with an intransitive meaning (Se secan los campos = "The fields dry up"), especially to signify a change of state, or an intransitive verb with an intransitive meaning (Crece la hierba = "The grass grows") to do the same thing; however, the underlying idea of this 'middle construction' in both its transitive and intransitive forms still seems to be a reflexive connotation. (Paraphrased from the RAE online manual 41.13d-41.13h.)

So I have my doubts if that is understandable, but there it is.

However, the underlying idea of this 'middle construction' in both its transitive and intransitive forms still seems to be a reflexive connotation.

I'm having doubts about that. The 'middle construction' may have been influenced by the reflexive historically, but now it looks like the main idea there is intransitive, similar to other normal intransitive verbs:

• Él vive tierra adentro, y por eso solamente en el río nada.
• Después de la siesta, el embajador estudió pasivamente.
• La doncella sonrió cuando cayó rodando la perrita.

And here are a few middle construction verbs which I think are similar to the above ones, but which would involve the "change of state."

• Se rompen los platos cristales contra el piso de mármol.
• Se quemaron las cerillas largas de sabo hasta nada.
• Las manos del escudero se sentaron completemente dormidos.

[GafasLentes]

That's an interesting bit of info. How, in your perspective, does Spanish end up with similar transitive verbs that function reflexively vs non reflexively. The most famous example is possibly acordarse vs. recordar (a mi me acuerdo vs. yo recuerdo).

Do these changes happen by chance? Apologies for my lack of experience in the language history here.

[Quaeso]

Firstly I would say that both of those verbs have a common root from Latin, which is cor- a neuter noun, meaning "the heart". Recordari-"to remember", is common classically, however accordare- also "to remember", seems to be from Late Latin. But before talking any further about that, I have a couple of issues with your question:

How, in your perspective, does Spanish end up with similar transitive verbs that function reflexively vs non reflexively.

Are you are instead perhaps claiming that recordar and acordarse are functioning transitively, but that that the two have conversely non-reflexive and reflexive forms?

• Mi tio recuerda esa fiesta.
• Me tio se acuerda esa fiesta.

But maybe you are not saying that, and you want an explanation as to why "a mi me acuerdo vs. yo recuerdo" mean the same thing but have different forms? And that acordar and recordar are both essentially transitive verbs?

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

Your examples are alright, I will just add a couple of corrections.

Originally Posted by Quaeso

Se rompen los platos de cristal contra el piso de mármol. ("Cristal is not an adjective, so we use the preposition to indicate the material of which the dishes are made.)
Se quemaron las cerillas largas de sebo hasta volverse nada. (We need a verb that will give sense to "nada". You could also say "hasta convertirse en nada" or simply "Las cerillas se consumieron").
Las manos del escudero se sintieron completemente dormidas. ("Se sentaron" means "they took a seat" and "manos" is a feminine noun, so the adjective must agree with the gender.)

And I would like to leave a note here:

Although both sentences mean that the dog tumbled down, if you say "el perro cayó rodando" you're just describing the action, but if you say "el perro se cayó rodando", you're kind of emphasizing that it was an unprovoked accident, even if someone laughed about it. This is how this "se" works.

However, there is actually a difference between a reflexive sentence and this "construcción media":
- Se mojó.
-> Reflexive meaning: He/she poured some liquid on themselves with the intention to get wet.
-> Construcción media: For some unintended reason, a liquid reached them and made them wet. Like sudden rain or a car splashing water over them.

- Se secaron.
-> Reflexive meaning: They used a towel to get dry.
-> Construcción media: They didn't do anything to get dry, but they did anyway.

- Se cortó.
-> Reflexive meaning: He/she deliberately took a knife and cut him/herself.
-> Construcción media: The person was handling a knife and they unintentionally got a cut.

Same case for actions like "se ensució", "se quemó", "se lastimó", "se curó"...
In all these, a reflexive action is intentional and a "construcción media" implies that nobody acted on the situation.




@Gafas: I can't answer how Spanish developed or why we use different constructions for verbs that mean basically the same thing , but here is a little correction to your example:

Originally Posted by GafasLentes

The most famous example is possibly acordarse vs. recordar (a mi yo me acuerdo vs. yo recuerdo).

With both verbs, the construction needs "Yo"
Yo me acuerdo (de)
Yo recuerdo
The difference is the pronominal particle "me" and the preposition "de" for the verb "acordarse".
Yo recuerdo a mi abuelo. = Yo me acuerdo de mi abuelo.
¿Recuerdas cómo te llamas? = ¿Te acuerdas de cómo te llamas?
Lo recordaremos siempre. = Nos acordaremos de eso siempre.
Nadie recuerda que gané un premio. = Nadie se acuerda de que gané un premio.
Recuerden sus contraseñas. = Acuérdense de sus contraseñas.

[Quaeso]

Thank you Angelica, for the corrections; my writing could use some practice, for sure! Those distinctions between the reflexive forms of the verb and the intransitive forms are helpful and interesting. Because I live in a place where Spanish is not often spoken, I don't get much experience day to day hearing the vocabulary used, like a native speaker would. So I don't want to get too technical here, but it seems helpful for myself to be able to categorize and group the verbs mentally so as to understand them when I'm reading Spanish, and I think that is the purpose of the above summary. I'd like to comment a bit on your examples by attaching my labels to them, con permiso.

• "el perro se cayó rodando" -"The dog happened by chance to fall, rolling"- Intransitive Pronominal, i.e. "Construcción Media"
• "el perro cayó rodando"- "The dog fell, rolling"- simple Intransitive
• "El trabajador se mojó por la lluvia." - Intransitive Pronominal, i.e. "Con. Media"
• "El trabajador se mojó por brincar en la agua del rio frio" -Transitive with pronoun, i.e. Reflexive
• "Los niños se secaron con toallas" - The children dried themselves with towels. - Reflexive
• "Los estanques se secaron despúes de dos semanas de la sequía.-"The ponds dried up after two weeks of drought." -Con. Media
• "Ella se cortó cuando se hizo depresiva."- Reflexive
• "Ella se cortó en la cocina porque el gato la distrayó.- Con. Media

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

Right. Just one precision:
"El trabajador se mojó por brincar en el agua del río" is also "construcción media". It is true that he deliberatedly jumped into the water, but one would expect his intention was not necessarily to get wet, but probably just to have fun or had a different intention, even if getting wet was an obvious outcome.
"El trabajador abrió la llave del agua y se mojó para refrescarse" is a reflexive. He poured the water on himself with the intention of getting wet and so relieve the heat.

[GafasLentes]

Originally Posted by Quaeso

Are you are instead perhaps claiming that recordar and acordarse are functioning transitively, but that that the two have conversely non-reflexive and reflexive forms?

Exactly. I'm maybe out of my element in this conversation. I learn Spanish through social conversation and have not studied grammar terms for a good number of months. I was just curious why one of the verbs is reflexive and the other isn't. This is a language history question. (i.e. Were they once distinct in meaning but ended up the same? Did they originate in different points of history where different grammar structures were more common?)

The context of the Latin origin is cool, the etymological route is often revealing

[Quaeso]

Originally Posted by GafasLentes

Exactly. I'm maybe out of my element in this conversation.

It's understandable because languages can be very complex. But I'm in no hurry, so I'm happy to help you to understand. And keep in mind that I'm only at about an intermediate level in Spanish, but I'll try to answer whatever you would like to ask.

I was just curious why one of the verbs is reflexive and the other isn't.

Now I think there is a relatively simple answer to your question which does not involve etymology, so I'll give you that first, and if you want to talk more about etymology after that we can.

Note that in Spanish, the verb recordar means "remember" and is a transitive verb. But that acordar means "to agree to" (transitive), and not "to remember". It becomes "remember" when the reflexive pronoun se is added to it, giving acordarse. But acordarse is not a transitive verb (which, again, would take a direct object) , it is an "intransitive pronominal" verb (meaning that it does not take an object). This is why it uses the prepositional phrase "de ...". Acordarse de... means literally "to remember about ...". The main point here is that the meanings of acordar and acordarse are different, since with the addition of the pronoun, there is a transferred meaning, and it becomes intransitive, if that makes sense.