Spanish in adjective clauses

[laepelba]

I'm still working through some of my issues with the subjunctive in adjective clauses. The workbook that I have seems to me to have insufficient explanations on this topic, so I'm reading some articles online.

In one article, I found the following two sentences:

Escoge la clase que más te guste.
Escojo las clases que más me gustan.

I'm a little fuzzy on the reason for using the subjunctive in the first sentence.

The article gives the following translation for the first: Choose whichever class you like best. Does the subjunctive, then, imply the "whichever"? Or would the sentence be better written as Escoje cualquier clase que más te guste.??

(I definitely understand why the second is indicative.)

Thanks for any suggestions you can offer!!

[chileno]

Originally Posted by laepelba

I'm still working through some of my issues with the subjunctive in adjective clauses. The workbook that I have seems to me to have insufficient explanations on this topic, so I'm reading some articles online.

In one article, I found the following two sentences:

Escoge la clase que más te guste.(neither you nor the person helping you know what classes are going to be the one you like)
Escojo las clases que más me gustan.

I'm a little fuzzy on the reason for using the subjunctive in the first sentence.

The article gives the following translation for the first: Choose whichever class you like best. Does the subjunctive, then, imply the "whichever"? Or would the sentence be better written as Escoje cualquier clase que más te guste.?? (subjunctive)

(I definitely understand why the second is indicative.)

Thanks for any suggestions you can offer!!

Does that help?


EDIT: added "neither"

[Luna Azul]

Originally Posted by laepelba

I'm still working through some of my issues with the subjunctive in adjective clauses. The workbook that I have seems to me to have insufficient explanations on this topic, so I'm reading some articles online.

In one article, I found the following two sentences:

Escoge la clase que más te guste.
Escojo las clases que más me gustan.

I'm a little fuzzy on the reason for using the subjunctive in the first sentence.

The article gives the following translation for the first: Choose whichever class you like best. Does the subjunctive, then, imply the "whichever"? YES Or would the sentence be better written as Escoge cualquier clase que más te guste.??

(I definitely understand why the second is indicative.)

Thanks for any suggestions you can offer!!

Actually, the verbs in both sentences can be switched to the other tense. You can say:

Escoge la clase que más te gusta.
Escojo las clases que más me gusten.

The reason being, when the person is not sure of what class he/she likes, you use the subjunctive. "Yo escojo la que más me guste". I still don't know which class that is.

If I'm pretty sure of what class I like, I use the indicative: "Yo escojo la clase que más me gusta... (que es la del maestro Benítez)"

It's the same for the first sentence. It's a command, but it works in the same way. I don't know what class you like, so I use the subjunctive: "Escoge la clase que más te guste (period)"

If I already know which class you like, I just tell you "Escoge la clase que más te gusta (la que me dijiste ayer)"

Does this make sense to you?

[laepelba]

Okay - that is very helpful!! Thanks, both of you!!

[aleCcowaN]

The problem is that a native speaker only by means of examining what's in his or her mind is able find a lot of instances of both subjunctive and indicative being "OK", and that's not the point.

The simple fact here is:

"Escoge la clase que más te guste."

comes in "command" form, so, there's a person "commanding" by using imperative and there are a person and a thing linked by the act of liking and the person that is giving advice neither knows which one is the thing nor can govern the person's likings. So the "command" is «choose a thing meeting the qualities of this adjective: "que más te guste"». It's a 100% adjective because the same way "rojo" hasn't been created having in mind "el auto rojo aquel" and it only carries a concept that can be used to identify or specify different things including "el auto rojo aquel", here "que más te guste" looks like it hasn't been created having in mind a specific class (the lame theory of "the class is unknown or undetermined, the person doesn't know what class the other person likes or would like, blah, blah!"). In fact it looks like it has been created don't having in fact the noun "class" in mind. Why? Look this:

Elige la clase que más que guste y deja la clase que más te aburra. Quédate también con la clase que más placer te dé, aunque no sea la misma que te gusta más.

Elige el/la amigovio/a que más te guste y deja el/la amigovio/a que más te aburra. Quédate también con el/la amigovio/a que más placer te dé, aunque no sea el/la mismo/a que te gusta más.

Those adjectives weren't cast having an specific noun in mind . Seriously though, neither the adjective "que te guste" was created to map all the things unknown to the speakers or uncertain to them.

On the other hand

"Escojo las clases que más me gustan"

is an habitual action. Firstly "te gustan" and then "las escojo". The last mentioned action can't be performed if the first one doesn't occur first. Here "que más me gustan" is also and adjective, but not just and adjective. This adjective is not purported as an identifier of specifier of the noun "clase" but mostly to illustrate my decision making process (my actions involving things, and not the things themselves). Just imagine what illustrates the phrase "escojo los novios que más me gustan" and what they'd tell and you'll get both are genetically different situation and not just mere "adjectival clause" which is in the end just a grammatical taxonomy.

Other sentences are valid in their specific narrow contexts. I won't explain how they work because it's Spanish 501:

(A says to B): "Elige la clase que más te gusta" [A presumes that B has been thinking about and has made a choice. A believes that B is here to communicate his/her decision] [another scenario: B has been telling he/she can't make his/her mind about choosing "quilting" that is the more likable class and "spreadsheets" that is the more practical in terms of job opportunities. Knowing that, A gives the advice of choosing quilting, not "la clase que más te guste", that is, A give advice about liked being better than practical in that specific situation]

"Escojo las clases que más me gusten" depicts somewhat a quicksilver person because he/she's speaking about habitual actions but deliberately postponing the act of liking to the moment when the class opportunity is available.

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN

Elije la clase que más que guste y deja la clase que más te aburra. Quédate también con la clase que más placer te dé, aunque no sea la misma que te gusta más. <-- Did you mean "te"?

Elije el/la amigovio/a que más te guste y deja el/la amigovio/a que más te aburra. Quédate también con el/la amigovio/a que más placer te dé, aunque no sea el/la mismo/a que te gusta más. <--I don't know what an "amigovio" is, and it's not in my dictionaries....

"Escojo las clases que más me gustan" is an habitual action. Firstly "te gustan" and then "las escojo"... <--Did you mean "me gustan", like in the sample sentence you gave?

Thanks, Alec. I am feeling confident about this now. (I'm sure you'll still see mistakes....) I only have questions about the few things I put 's near above..... Thank you!!

[Luna Azul]

Originally Posted by aleCcowaN

"Escoge la clase que más te guste."

Elige la clase que más que te guste y deja la clase que más te aburra.

Elige el/la amigovio/a que más te guste y deja el/la amigovio/a que más te aburra.

(A says to B): "Elige la clase que más te gusta"

Luna Azul

laepelba <--I don't know what an "amigovio" is, and it's not in my dictionaries....

<--Did you mean "me gustan", like in the sample sentence you gave?

"Amigovio(a)" is a word used nowadays to meaning "amigo novio". It's used when the relation hasn't become very serious yet usually when you ask the person and they say "Es sólo un amigo/una amiga" but they don't behave as such.. ;-)

As for the second one, Alec might have a better explanation but I think he just made a typo there.

[chileno]

Originally Posted by Luna Azul

Luna Azul



"Amigovio(a)" is a word used nowadays to meaning "amigo novio". It's used when the relation hasn't become very serious yet usually when you ask the person and they say "Es sólo un amigo/una amiga" but they don't behave as such.. ;-)

As for the second one, Alec might have a better explanation but I think he just made a typo there.

In other words, es un amigo con ventaja/con derecho a raspe etc.

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by Luna Azul

Luna Azul



"Amigovio(a)" is a word used nowadays to meaning "amigo novio". It's used when the relation hasn't become very serious yet usually when you ask the person and they say "Es sólo un amigo/una amiga" but they don't behave as such.. ;-)

As for the second one, Alec might have a better explanation but I think he just made a typo there.

Thanks, Luna! "Amigovio/a" sounds like a fun word to use with my students... It's not inappropriate, is it?

[Luna Azul]

Originally Posted by chileno

In other words, es un amigo con ventaja/con derecho a raspe etc.

I take it you're from Chile, chileno (duh). The word in Chile for "novio" is "pololo", right?. Can you give us some insight on how that word came out to be used? where did it come from?

Originally Posted by laepelba

Thanks, Luna! "Amigovio/a" sounds like a fun word to use with my students... It's not inappropriate, is it?

No, it's not..

[chileno]

Originally Posted by Luna Azul

I take it you're from Chile, chileno (duh). The word in Chile for "novio" is "pololo", right?. Can you give us some insight on how that word came out to be used? where did it come from?

Well, proper Spanish:

Novio = bridegroom - fiancee

Pololo/a = boy/girlfriend

amigovio = pololo con ventaja.

I have no idea where that word came from...

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by chileno

un amigo con ventaja/con derecho a raspe

Originally Posted by chileno

amigovio = pololo con ventaja.

Actually, the reason I asked if "amigovio/a" is appropriate is because when you say "amigo con ventaja", it sounds too much like "friends with benefits", which in English is quite inappropriate and somewhat offensive. I would never say that with my students. So I just wanted to make sure.....

[aleCcowaN]

Yes, there is no change of subject there as the meant subject is "one" or "anybody". It was meant as "primero te gustan y luego las escoges", but I was thinking about how extremely important is to this whole subject perceiving the way the ideas generate inside our cranium and experience that process as an spectator, so I slipped to first person.

"te gustan" = "me gustan" = "nos gustan" = "a uno le gustan" ---> one likes = you like = we like


Addendum: "Amigovio" (something in between "boy/girlfriend" and "friend with privileges") -and used mostly when the status is unknown or they can't decide what their status is, so it is not a bad term neither much edifying-). I hope "amigovio" have ... how would you say "servido su propósito"?... that is, it was meant to exemplify by contrast how far was "que te guste" from the noun in the example.

[chileno]

Originally Posted by laepelba

Actually, the reason I asked if "amigovio/a" is appropriate is because when you say "amigo con ventaja", it sounds too much like "friends with benefits", which in English is quite inappropriate and somewhat offensive. I would never say that with my students. So I just wanted to make sure.....

Correct.

amigovio supposedly es less offensive than amigo con ventaja, but if you are going to use either do it between friends....

In Chile is used very much when joking and making fun of todays boys and girls, but it can be taken offensively too.

It isn't what you say, but how you say it.

[Vikingo]

Well, I just learned a new word!

Is this (amigovio) used in all of Latin America? (or where?) Is it used in Spain also? I feel as daft as when I first realized that "a lo mejor" was actually something like "quizá(s)". Thanks, David

[chileno]

Originally Posted by Vikingo

Well, I just learned a new word!

Is this (amigovio) used in all of Latin America? (or where?) Is it used in Spain also? I feel as daft as when I first realized that "a lo mejor" was actually something like "quizá(s)". Thanks, David

I am not sure, as this was the first time I read the word. I don't think it is used in Chile, because novio we only use it for bridesgroom.

Pololear = have a pololo or polola for boy/girlfriend.

[Luna Azul]

Originally Posted by chileno

I am not sure, as this was the first time I read the word. I don't think it is used in Chile because novio we only use it for bridesgroom.

Pololear = have a pololo or polola for boy/girlfriend.

You hadn't seen the word before and yet you told laepelba that in Chile it's used when joking among friends but it could also be offensive??? How can that be??

[chileno]

Originally Posted by Luna Azul

You hadn't seen the word before and yet you told laepelba that in Chile it's used when joking among friends but it could also be offensive??? How can that be??

I was referring to amigo con ventaja...

I apologize if I misled you.

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

Originally Posted by laepelba

Actually, the reason I asked if "amigovio/a" is appropriate is because when you say "amigo con ventaja", it sounds too much like "friends with benefits", which in English is quite inappropriate and somewhat offensive. I would never say that with my students. So I just wanted to make sure.....

The fashion expression among some Mexican youngsters is "amigos con derechos". "Amigovios" is heard less often.
I do find both as inappropriate and almost offensive as "friends with benefits", since they suggest some sort of immoral behaviour from those people. Do not use them with people who don't have a very close friendship with you.

[pia]

http://www.veintemundos.com/en/spanish/chile/

"The Spanish spoken in Chile was originally similar to the Andalusian dialect but has over time been influenced by indigenous languages such as Quechua and Mapudungun as well as by other European languages from the waves of immigration in the 19th and 20th centuries...

pololo/a – ‘boyfriend/girlfriend’ comes from Mapudungun word “piulliu” meaning ‘fly’ and refers to the similar behavior of the boy to the girl (or vice versa) as the fly around fruit."