Cultural differences or just uncultured?

[maravilloso]

The other day at work I was talking to the people who clean our office and they were Hispanic. So naturally we were speaking in spanish to each other about a comic strip I hung up (which was in Spanish). The manager that sits in the cubical across from mine told me that "Spanish people" need to speak "our" language not theirs or they need to go back to where they came from. I sort of just stared at him and told him they have a right to speak their own language. I was shocked, offende, and embrassed that he said this in from of the girl I was talking to.

Why is it that some Americans feel this way. I am American and I don't act that way or think that way. Is it just cultural differences or rem being uncultured?

[poli]

To put it simply (and sometimes simply doesn't tell it all), this is an example of American politics at work. Some welcome diversity and others shun diversity.

[aleCcowaN]

Here the same about many people, for instance, those came from China, Korea or Laos, who are accused not only of speaking 'unintelligible' languages but of keeping 'expressionless' faces in order to complete the offense of being hard workers.

I remember how I learnt it at school: Is it legal here a signed contract written in Swahili and Burukashi? Yes, totally. So no language is mandatory except for formal occasions. But still only recently it was allowed to the original people to have official education in their languages -but not exclusively-. But they are sending Gypsy children to the public school in Spanish and they forced Mennonite children to follow part of their education in Spanish, because Spanish is considered the language everybody must know to understand their rights and obligations with the rest of their fellow country people.

I suppose something similar in the States.

[irmamar]

I think that nothing is written in USA about using English, but in Spain, our Constitution says (art. 3), about Spanish, that all the citizens have the duty of knowing it and the right of using it. The same with the other official languages in our country, whose linguistic rights are considered in their regional Statutes. So, I don't believe your boss is impolite but realistic; knowing the official language of a country opens doors. Another thing would be that people with other language speak this language in their circle and with their family, and it is normal that if you speak Spanish, they prefer to speak Spanish with you than English. But there's nothing wrong if they learn English.

[chileno]

Originally Posted by irmamar

I think that nothing is written in USA about using English, but in Spain, our Constitution says (art. 3), about Spanish, that all the citizens have the duty of knowing it and the right of using it. The same with the other official languages in our country, whose linguistic rights are considered in their regional Statutes. So, I don't believe your boss is impolite but realistic; knowing the official language of a country opens doors. Another thing would be that people with other language speak this language in their circle and with their family, and it is normal that if you speak Spanish, they prefer to speak Spanish with you than English. But there's nothing wrong if they learn English.

Problem is that the US doesn't have an official language.

Besides, while that person was being reasonable when he or she said that, I guess the way it was said is what shocked maravilloso.

[poli]

There is certainly nothing wrong in addressing people in their native language if they haven't mastered the language of their adoptive country. In fact it is nice and hospitable.

This is especially true in the United States where English is certainly dominant and culturally will remain that way. I think some peoples' fear
of a "foreign invasion" are greatly over estimated. Many of the people with these unfounded fears need only to look back at their grandparents and great grandparents who spoke only German, Italian etc. to see that their children rapidly learn English and forget German and Italian. People should not let politically-inspired xenophobic rhetoric rule their lives.

[JPablo]

Well, yes... all this reminds me my old boss who spoke fluently all the European languages and he enjoyed communicating to all the tourists they'll come to his restaurant...

Also reminds me the old joke,
-How do you call a person who speaks many languages? -Polyglot.
-How do you call a person who speaks 3 languages? -Trilingual.
-How do you call a person who speaks 2 languages? -Bilingual.
-How do you call a person who speaks 1 language? -American.

(No offense intended to all the fine Americans in this forum who are actually very proficient in Spanish and many other languages... but somehow, the attitude of the boss at the beginning of the thread reflects a bit of that...)

I'd tend to admire someone who speaks 10 languages more than one who speaks only one, unless that only language is mastered with such skill that is impressive... (But I tend to see that even the great writers don't get fixated in one single language... Reminds me "En Attendant Godot" by Samuel Beckett, Irish guy writing in English and French, or the Spanish Moratín, translating Shakespeare... and writing his own work...)

At any rate... it reminds me too this old poem/song (I don't remember the author) (Well, yes, I found it googling it, of course...)

Admiróse un portugués
al ver que en su tierna infancia
todos los niños de Francia
supieran hablar francés.
"Arte diabólico es
-dijo torciendo el mostacho-,
que para hablar el gabacho
un hidalgo en Portugal
llega a viejo, lo habla mal
y acá lo parla un muchacho".
(Nicolás Fernández de Moratín)

(Sorry if I am a bit rambling... but these are my 2 cents, or 4 or 5 Euros...)
Let's say,
"Mi granito de arena..."

[irmamar]

Sí, sí, pero ya ha soltado lo de "gabacho".

[JPablo]

Ooops!
Al gabacho
con bombachos
lo latigaba un cómitre,
con su insufrible corbacho.
Ay muchacho,
a ver que dice el populacho...
(Talking about rambling...)

[maravilloso]

Originally Posted by JPablo

Well, yes... all this reminds me my old boss who spoke fluently all the European languages and he enjoyed communicating to all the tourists they'll come to his restaurant...

Also reminds me the old joke,
-How do you call a person who speaks many languages? -Polyglot.
-How do you call a person who speaks 3 languages? -Trilingual.
-How do you call a person who speaks 2 languages? -Bilingual.
-How do you call a person who speaks 1 language? -American.

(No offense intended to all the fine Americans in this forum who are actually very proficient in Spanish and many other languages... but somehow, the attitude of the boss at the beginning of the thread reflects a bit of that...)

I'd tend to admire someone who speaks 10 languages more than one who speaks only one, unless that only language is mastered with such skill that is impressive... (But I tend to see that even the great writers don't get fixated in one single language... Reminds me "En Attendant Godot" by Samuel Beckett, Irish guy writing in English and French, or the Spanish Moratín, translating Shakespeare... and writing his own work...)

He is one of those Americans... He thinks that everyone should speak only English. I just don't agree with that, maybe it is a bit of both.

I did, however, like your song and joke

[JPablo]

Well, thank you, I am glad you liked these.

At least we can take things in one's stride and smile and laugh as much as we can, while no losing awareness of what is going on around us.

The point being is that we can always help each other, and one who can help others is more powerful than one who is afraid of others... (but now we get into the philosophical implications of all that...)

[pjt33]

Maravilloso, have you tried asking the manager how his Algonquin is?

[poli]

I worked with a woman who said, "talk American" (instead of speak English) to Spanish speakers when they called her on the phone. That's how stupid she was. When I became her supervisor, I fired her.

[chileno]

Originally Posted by poli

I worked with a woman who said, "talk American" (instead of speak English) to Spanish speakers when they called her on the phone. That's how stupid she was. When I became her supervisor, I fired her.

I worked with a woman like that, and one day I turned to talk to another co-worker who was hispanic and I talked to him in Spanish, she immediately turned to us and said something to that effect and added that for all she knew, we could be talking about her. I just said that I had better things to talk about.

[JPablo]

Well, yes... I guess the people who talk Spanish should (by their own origination, not because it is enforced) be polite enough to talk in English when people who only talk in English is around.

I can feel excluded when 3 or 4 Chinese persons start to talk amongst themselves and I cannot understand one iota... (And these people are considerate enough to talk in English when they realize that I am not in the loop... by a long shot.) But the viewpoint is that I am not "intruding" into their conversation or "accusing" them for talking in their language...

I take that the "golden rule" of "not doing unto others what you'd not like others to do to you" and the reverse "do to others what you'd like others to do to you" would be the best rule of thumb... (or words and/or intention to that effect...)

And like they say Lao Tzu said or wrote, "the Tao [dao] that can be explained is not the true Tao..."

[chileno]

Originally Posted by JPablo

Well, yes... I guess the people who talk Spanish should (by their own origination, not because it is enforced) be polite enough to talk in English when people who only talk in English is around.

I can feel excluded when 3 or 4 Chinese persons start to talk amongst themselves and I cannot understand one iota... (And these people are considerate enough to talk in English when they realize that I am not in the loop... by a long shot.) But the viewpoint is that I am not "intruding" into their conversation or "accusing" them for talking in their language...

I take that the "golden rule" of "not doing unto others what you'd not like others to do to you" and the reverse "do to others what you'd like others to do to you" would be the best rule of thumb... (or words and/or intention to that effect...)

And like they say Lao Tzu said or wrote, "the Tao [dao] that can be explained is not the true Tao..."

Basically correct. But that there are moments, for whatever reasons, you speak in your language, in front of strangers.

I would have gone buts, had I thought that every person around me was talking.....................well, about me!

Funny you mention this about the "golden rule". Precisely in that job the boss used to tell us about the "golden rule" being "he, who has the gold RULES!"

Know what I mean?

[pjt33]

Originally Posted by JPablo

Well, yes... I guess the people who talk Spanish should (by their own origination, not because it is enforced) be polite enough to talk in English when people who only talk in English is around.

It's more complicated that that. I read a good book on bilingualism a few years ago, and one point that it made was that two people who both speak languages A and B tend to develop habits for which they use to talk to each other which are hard to get out of. My observations since then seem to confirm it.

Now, if you're alert and make an effort then you can override those habits, but if you're tired or don't stop to think then you can accidentally exclude people.

Don't get me onto conversations where one person speaks a bit of Spanish, one person speaks a bit of English, and you're sitting in the middle...

[chileno]

Originally Posted by pjt33

It's more complicated that that. I read a good book on bilingualism a few years ago, and one point that it made was that two people who both speak languages A and B tend to develop habits for which they use to talk to each other which are hard to get out of. My observations since then seem to confirm it.

Now, if you're alert and make an effort then you can override those habits, but if you're tired or don't stop to think then you can accidentally exclude people.

Don't get me onto conversations where one person speaks a bit of Spanish, one person speaks a bit of English, and you're sitting in the middle...

Not only a little Spanish or English. "idiotsyncracies" get in the way no matter what, so one must try to keep an open mind when things are getting "weird" in one's head. I always ask, to make sure I am not shooting myself on the foot.

By the that happens even with people of the same language, but different countries. I don't want to use the word "culture", so instead I use "country".

[pjt33]

Originally Posted by chileno

Not only a little Spanish or English. "idiotsyncracies" get in the way no matter what, so one must try to keep an open mind when things are getting "weird" in one's head. I always ask, to make sure I am not shooting myself on the foot.

Bueno, no me he explicado bien. Me refería más a la dificultad de incluir a todos en una conversación cuando hay algunos que no tienen una lengua común. Si vas traduciendo pero a la vez participas en la conversación surgen más cuestiones éticas de cuándo se puede dejar algo sin traducir etc.

[chileno]

Originally Posted by pjt33

Bueno, no me he explicado bien. Me refería más a la dificultad de incluir a todos en una conversación cuando hay algunos que no tienen una lengua común. Si vas traduciendo pero a la vez participas en la conversación surgen más cuestiones éticas de cuándo se puede dejar algo sin traducir etc.

Ni que decirlo.