Preterit vs. imperfect in one particular sentence

[laepelba]

I have a question about one sentence in particular. I was asked to choose the preterit or imperfect in the following sentence, based on the context and other words in the sentence:

Los vendedores (ganaban / ganaron) el 20% de comisión ese día.

The book says that the answer is "ganaron" (preterit) because it happened on one particular day.

BUT, I thought it could be "ganaban" (imperfect), too because it seems to be something that was happening all day: "The venders were earning a 20% commission that day" could be the case, right?

[Rusty]

You would use ganaban only if you were describing the action as an ongoing or habitual thing. I believe the words 'ese día' imply a completed action. There's no indication that the statement was 'setting the stage' for another completed action, so it alone must be the completed action on that day.

[chileno]

Originally Posted by laepelba

I have a question about one sentence in particular. I was asked to choose the preterit or imperfect in the following sentence, based on the context and other words in the sentence:

Los vendedores (ganaban / ganaron) el 20% de comisión ese día.

The book says that the answer is "ganaron" (preterit) because it happened on one particular day.

BUT, I thought it could be "ganaban" (imperfect), too because it seems to be something that was happening all day: "The venders were earning a 20% commission that day" could be the case, right?

Right. It depends on context...

In those days the vendors earned around a 20%... etc. ganaban

On December 24th, vendors earned a 20%.... ganaron

[laepelba]

Thanks, gentlemen!

[gramatica]

Hello,

You could also say "los vendedores ganaban el 20% de comisión ese día, pero a las 3 cuando no había mucha gente, el gerente decidió bajarla a un 15%," couldn't you?

Thank you

[Rusty]

Yes.

[xchic]

Originally Posted by chileno

Right. It depends on context...

In those days the vendors earned around a 20%... etc. ganaban

In December 24th, vendors earned a 20%.... ganaron

On December 24th

[chileno]

Originally Posted by xchic

On December 24th

Right. Thanks.

[laepelba]

So let me come back to this discussion, because I have a related question. I was having lunch with some Peruvian friends this morning. I was telling a story, and at one point in my story, a guest at a dinner given two weeks ago needed to walk to the bus stop nearby. So I said "Ella necesitó caminar a la parada...." At this point, all of them (including their 11-year-old son whose better language is English) corrected me and said that it was supposed to be "necesitaba" because it's past tense. I repeated myself, saying that I wanted the "o" to have the stress, and maybe I didn't say it right. The father, who has been a Spanish teacher on and off over the years, tried to explain to me that "necesitaba" if it's something that is ongoing, and "necesitó" if it's something that happened in one moment. And my response was that to me, it seems like her need to go to the bus was something that happened in that moment. And at this point, my wonderful Peruvian friends gave up explaining to me.......

Hopefully my friends here in the Forums won't give up on me quite so quickly. Please help me to understand why it needs to be imperfect there..... THANKS!!

[Luna Azul]

It actually depends on the rest of the story. The sentence by itself doesn't allow me to tell you which tense is correct.

I assume the action started before she "had to go to the bus stop". If that's the case, the imperfect must be used.

Example:

"Ella estaba de compras y se dio cuenta de que necesitaba ir a la parada"

"Ella estuvo de compras y después necesitó ir a la parada".

The second sentence is more emphatic to express that bothe actions were done in a shorter period of time. The first one is an action that takes a long period of time.

I know this is not easy to understand. In our Spanish minds we already know, without thinking, which of the two tenses we must use. With time and excercise you'll end up doing the same.

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by Luna Azul

It actually depends on the rest of the story. The sentence by itself doesn't allow me to tell you which tense is correct.

I assume the action started before she "had to go to the bus stop". If that's the case, the imperfect must be used.

Example:

"Ella estaba de compras y se dio cuenta de que necesitaba ir a la parada"

"Ella estuvo de compras y después necesitó ir a la parada".

The second sentence is more emphatic to express that bothe actions were done in a shorter period of time. The first one is an action that takes a long period of time.

I know this is not easy to understand. In our Spanish minds we already know, without thinking, which of the two tenses we must use. With time and excercise you'll end up doing the same.

The story was that there were four of us having dinner together and it got late. One of the women needed to go to the bus stop and the rest of us decided to walk with her, as we were in a "iffy" neighborhood in downtown Buenos Aires. So we all walked out of the apartment, sin bolsas, sin cellulares, sin dinero, y sin LLAVES...... The rest of the story is about getting the lady to the bus stop and the rest of us getting back into our friend's apartment at 12:30am.

So, why should it be "necesitaba" instead of "necesitó"?

[Luna Azul]

<<One of the women needed to go to the bus stop and the rest of us decided to walk with her

"Una de las mujeres necesitaba ir a la parada del bus y el resto (de nosotros) decidió caminar con ella".

If you use the preterite you'll be understood but it will sound very weird... and foreign

The action is part of another action that's been taking place for a long period of time.

One example in which you have to use the preterite is:

"Una de las mujeres necesitó ir a la parada del bus varias veces".

Even if it's "several times", each action is just a short action with no other actions involved. So the verb is used in the preterite.

If you said ""Una de las mujeres necesitaba ir a la parada del bus varias veces", you're saying she had to go to the bus stop several times over a long period of time.. maybe every day, or every week.

[aleCcowaN]

It's a matter of meaning as "she needed to walk to the bus stop in order to take the bus". Look at the time information in this sentence in English: the only evidence of past is in the verb "need", the other verbs (walk, take) have no time tags.

Now ask yourself about the sentence in English, what is the main action -the objective- in it? to walk to the bus stop or to take the bus? Probably, "to go home", but you have to choose one of them -or both in a chain- to represent that objective.

Now, think the sentence in Spanish. If you decided that "to walk" is the main action, then say "Necesitó caminar hasta la parada" because the main action is completed even before the bus have arrived for that person to take it. If you decided that "to take" is the main action, or "walk and then take" is the main action, the action is not completed "until the fat lady sings" so you say "necesitaba caminar hasta la parada ..." and then it is open for the rest of the action to take place.

"Necesitaba caminar hasta la parada para tomar el autobús": the past tense set the action in the past and the imperfect aspect introduces a chain of events and avoids suggesting that walking to the bus stop is a goal by itself "that this person felt a need to fulfil".

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by Luna Azul

"Una de las mujeres necesitaba ir a la parada del bus y el resto (de nosotros) decidió caminar con ella". <---- Okay, this is what makes the most sense to me, that it was a (short term) ongoing need (imperfect), "interrupted" by our decision to help her (preterit).

The action is part of another action that's been taking place for a long period of time. A long time? No, it was at 11:30 that she realized she needed to walk to the bus that one time....

One example in which you have to use the preterite is:

"Una de las mujeres necesitó ir a la parada del bus varias veces".

Even if it's "several times", each action is just a short action with no other actions involved. So the verb is used in the preterite.

If you said ""Una de las mujeres necesitaba ir a la parada del bus varias veces", you're saying she had to go to the bus stop several times over a long period of time.. maybe every day, or every week. But it wasn't a regular thing.... :-/

Thanks!!

[Luna Azul]

A long time? No, it was at 11:30 that she realized she needed to walk to the bus that one time....

Yes, it is, it's part of several actions that are related in your story that started with you having dinner and ended with the rest of you walking with her. The time of the day doesn't matter.

But it wasn't a regular thing.... :-/

I was giving you an example of when not to use the Imperfect in a similar sentence. The "varias veces" part tells you the Preterite must be used.

[laepelba]

Okay .... rrrrmmmm .... I'll keep thinking about it! Thank you, Luna!

[chileno]

I guess you could've said:

Una mujer necesitó que la lleváramos a la parada del bus...

[laepelba]

Wait - so "necesitaba" describes her state of being at the time (ella necesitaba ir a la parada...) ... but "necesitó" would describe something that happened to her (ella necesitó que alguien camina con ella a la parada)? Is that the difference?

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

I'd say you're right, Lou Ann.

[chileno]