Más que & Más de

[laepelba]

From a different thread ( http://forums.tomisimo.org/showthread.php?t=8769 ), I am working on understanding the difference between "más que" and "más de".

I have thoroughly read everything you folks have sent my way, and I have read some other websites, etc. that I have found on the subject. I am still a bit confused.

I found the following examples about which I have questions:

About "más que":
- No tiene más que 28 años. = He is not more than 28 years old.
Question: I see the explanation (in the other thread) that "Seguido de una expresión cuantitativa, esta construcción significa ‘solamente’". So the translation would be more accurately "He is only 28 years old.", right?

- Me duela más que antes. = This hurts me more than before.
Question: Unrelated to the "más que" - is there a quick/short answer (or referring thread) as to why this is subjunctive? If not, I'll drop it for now...


About "más de":
- Pesa más de lo que parece. = It's heavier than you think.
- Es más complicado de lo que tú crees. = It's more complicated than you think.
- Le pagaré el doble de lo que marque el taxímetro. = I will pay you twice what the meter reads.
- El viejo sabe del testigo más de lo que aparenta. = The old man knows of the witness more than it seems. (?? Still working on what this one means...)
- Me despierto varias horas antes de lo que solía. = I wake up several hours earlier than I used to.
NOTE: A couple of the websites I've been reading group words like "doble" and "antes" with the "más que/más de" question, that's why they're included here.
Question about the above five examples: They each contain "lo que", and I don't understand why "lo que" is necessary. When I try to say each of them without "lo que", they sound fine to me... But they also sound the same to me if I change "más de lo que" to just "más que".....
For example:
"Pesa más de lo que parece." ?=? "Pesa más que parece." (etc.)

- Les deseo muchos años más de felicidad. = I wish for you many more years of happiness.
- Quiero saber más de los dinosaurios. = I want to know more about dinosaurs.
- Nike Air: Un poco menos de dolor. = Nike Air: A little less hurt.
Question: These don't seem to be related to the original question because they're not comparisons, right? "More years" after today, "more knowledge" than what I have (not really a comparison...), and "less pain" than without these shoes (again, not really a comparison).... Am I right about these three?

Still trying to understand........ Thanks!!

[pjt33]

Originally Posted by laepelba

- No tiene más que 28 años. = He is not more than 28 years old.
Question: I see the explanation (in the other thread) that "Seguido de una expresión cuantitativa, esta construcción significa ‘solamente’". So the translation would be more accurately "He is only 28 years old.", right?

Yes.

- Me duela más que antes. = This hurts me more than before.
Question: Unrelated to the "más que" - is there a quick/short answer (or referring thread) as to why this is subjunctive? If not, I'll drop it for now...

Looks like a typo to me.

"Pesa más de lo que parece." ?=? "Pesa más que parece." (etc.)

The second one means "It weighs more than it seems" but in a nonsensical way. It's attributing two independent actions: weighing and seeming; and then contrasting the amount or intensity with which the two are performed. If you really spell out what you mean it's "It weighs more than the amount it seems to weigh". English lets you elide a bit more than Spanish here.

- Les deseo muchos años más de felicidad. = I wish for you many more years of happiness.
- Quiero saber más de los dinosaurios. = I want to know more about dinosaurs.
- Nike Air: Un poco menos de dolor. = Nike Air: A little less hurt.
Question: These don't seem to be related to the original question because they're not comparisons, right? "More years" after today, "more knowledge" than what I have (not really a comparison...), and "less pain" than without these shoes (again, not really a comparison).... Am I right about these three?

I think so, although personally I'd say "Quiero saber más acerca de los dinosaurios".

[laepelba]

Thanks, PJT! That's helpful. I'm still working on it..........

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

Originally Posted by laepelba

About "más que":
- No tiene más que 28 años. = He is not more than 28 years old.
Question: I see the explanation (in the other thread) that "Seguido de una expresión cuantitativa, esta construcción significa ‘solamente’". So the translation would be more accurately "He is only 28 years old.", right?

Right. "Más que" in this case, work together as a conjunction similar to "sino".
No hablo más que (sino) con tres personas. -> I don't talk but to three persons.
No hablo con más de tres personas. -> I don't talk to more than three persons.

En el concierto no había más que 100 personas. -> Only 100 people were at the concert.
En el concierto no había más de 100 personas. -> There were less than 100 people at the concert.

Originally Posted by laepelba

- Me duele más que antes. = This hurts me more than before.
Question: Unrelated to the "más que" - is there a quick/short answer (or referring thread) as to why this is subjunctive? If not, I'll drop it for now...

Conjugation is obviously wrong, so be careful with your sources.

Originally Posted by laepelba

Question about the above five examples: They each contain "lo que", and I don't understand why "lo que" is necessary. When I try to say each of them without "lo que", they sound fine to me... But they also sound the same to me if I change "más de lo que" to just "más que".....
For example:
"Pesa más de lo que parece." ?=? "Pesa más que parece." (etc.)

No. "De lo que" is indispensable, since it's the pronoun of what you're talking about.
If you say "pesa más que parece", it would be a clumsy way to make a senseless statement: the thing weighs instead of seeming.

Originally Posted by laepelba

- Les deseo muchos años más de felicidad. = I wish for you many more years of happiness.
- Quiero saber más de los dinosaurios. = I want to know more about dinosaurs.
- Nike Air: Un poco menos de dolor. = Nike Air: A little less hurt.
Question: These don't seem to be related to the original question because they're not comparisons, right? "More years" after today, "more knowledge" than what I have (not really a comparison...), and "less pain" than without these shoes (again, not really a comparison).... Am I right about these three?

Right, these are not comparisons, and not related to your original "studying object", but it's good to know the right preposition after "más" and "menos" for these cases (I guess).


Edit: Pjt beat me to reply, but one more opinion on it won't harm, I hope.

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

No. "De lo que" is indispensable, since it's the pronoun of what you're talking about.
If you say "pesa más que parece", it would be a clumsy way to make a senseless statement: the thing weighs instead of seeming.
<-- I guess I don't see the purpose of the "lo que" in the sentence... What is the meaning? And is there every a situation where it would be "más que lo que..."?

Right, these are not comparisons, and not related to your original "studying object", but it's good to know the right preposition after "más" and "menos" for these cases (I guess).
<-- Well, it seems like the word "of" in English: more OF years, more OF knowledge, and more OF pain...

Edit: Pjt beat me to reply, but one more opinion on it won't harm, I hope.

Both yours and PJT's answers are helpful!! Thanks, both of you.

It seems that more often, "más que" is comparing nouns/noun phrases and "más de" is comparing either quantities or qualities... Would you explain to me the difference between these two sentences?

Su hermano pequeño es más alto que yo.
Es más complicado de lo que tú crees.

If I understood the use of que in the first and de in the second, it would be extremely helpful!

THANKS!!!

[chileno]

Originally Posted by laepelba

Both yours and PJT's answers are helpful!! Thanks, both of you.

It seems that more often, "más que" is comparing nouns/noun phrases and "más de" is comparing either quantities or qualities... Would you explain to me the difference between these two sentences?

Su hermano pequeño es más alto que yo.
Es más complicado de lo que tú crees.

If I understood the use of que in the first and de in the second, it would be extremely helpful!

THANKS!!!

His younger brother is higher than me.

It is more complicated than what you believe.

The second one is more difficult to explain... since in English is wrong to say:

It is more complicated of what you believe.

[laepelba]

Right. The problem is that I know what they mean in English, but I don't understand the difference in Spanish. In English we say "more than" for both "más que" and "más de". I am working on when to use "que" and when to use "de".

[chileno]

Originally Posted by laepelba

Right. The problem is that I know what they mean in English, but I don't understand the difference in Spanish. In English we say "more than" for both "más que" and "más de". I am working on when to use "que" and when to use "de".

Ok, so now comes forth the knowledge you have been seeking all along. DO, IO etc...

Es más difícil de lo que (tú) crees.

It is more difficult than what you think.

Es más difícil que (tú) crees.

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by laepelba

Would you explain to me the difference between these two sentences?

Su hermano pequeño es más alto que yo.
Es más complicado de lo que tú crees.

If I understood the use of que in the first and de in the second, it would be extremely helpful!

I think maybe you missed my original question. I'm trying to figure out when to use "más que" and when to use "más de".

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

@Lou Ann: This is your original question, so it seems none of our answers has been any "helpful" to you, despite what you have said. (?)
I think you should take a slow look to replies, examples and explanations in all the relevant threads (Particularly, I think Perikles quoted a great explanation (post #15) within the Hacer o estar thread).

"Lo" substantivizes "your" perception (what you think -> lo que tú crees).

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by laepelba

Would you explain to me the difference between these two sentences?

Su hermano pequeño es más alto que yo.
Es más complicado de lo que tú crees.

If I understood the use of que in the first and de in the second, it would be extremely helpful!

Let me see if I can do a better job of explaining where I'm stuck...

In the first sentence I see: Subject/adjective + verb + más + descriptor + que + subject (+ understood verb "soy").

In the second sentence I see: (Understood subject eso/esto +) más + descriptor + de + object + subject + verb.

I hear you telling me that it canNOT be "Su hermano pequeño es mas alto de yo" nor can it be "Es más complicado que tú crees."

Unfortunately, I don't understand why. What is the difference between the situations in these two sentences so that I know when to use "más que" and when to use "más de" in situations like this? I have spent several hours trying to come up with sentences to practice this difference, but I can't understand the difference, and after several hours I have a very blank sheet of paper.

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

I think Perikles quoted a great explanation (post #15) within the Hacer o estar thread).

What a brilliant post - the depressing thing is that I have abolutely no recollection of posting it.

Originally Posted by laepelba

In the first sentence I see: Subject/adjective + verb + más + descriptor + que + subject (+ understood verb "soy").

In the second sentence I see: (Understood subject eso/esto +) más + descriptor + de + object + subject + verb.

What is the difference between the situations in these two sentences

I wonder whether you are thinking too much - you do it quite often. The first is a direct comparison A > B, requiring que. (A conjuction is needed because of the ellipsed verb in the subordinate clause.) The second is more complex, requiring a clause with a finite verb in it. Since that clause also has a que, the first conjunction being substituted for de (preposition) relating to the object.

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by Perikles

What a brilliant post - the depressing thing is that I have abolutely no recollection of posting it.

What is wrong with me? I don't see a post #15 in that thread. When I look at it, it ends with post #14 and there are no more pages....???

Originally Posted by Perikles

I wonder whether you are thinking too much - you do it quite often. The first is a direct comparison A > B, requiring que. (A conjuction is needed because of the ellipsed verb in the subordinate clause.) The second is more complex, requiring a clause with a finite verb in it. Since that clause also has a que, the first conjunction being substituted for de (preposition) relating to the object.

I've actually been told recently here at Tomisimo that I'm not doing enough to internalize what I'm learning and that I need to stay on one thing longer in order to actually learn it because I'm making the same mistakes over and over again. So I really want to *get* this before I move on to the next thing...

Originally Posted by Perikles

My grammar book says más que is used in what it calls 'comparisons of inequality' by which it means 'X is bigger than Y', where both are measured, with a specific difference. That is what I called an exact comparative.

It then goes on to say that más de is used when

1) comparisons are made with an element in another clause, where it will be followed by a pronoun plus que:

Es más rápida de lo que yo pensaba
Había menos personas de las que habíamos invitado

I copied this from your other post in the other thread. I guess that I don't see how the exact or direct comparisons work. (And I definitely don't understand what "ellipsed" and "finite" verbs are...)

Let's use this sentence as an example. (I found it in one of Malila's posts on a different thread.)
Quiero a Juan más que a ti, pero te quiero más de lo que crees.

According to what you're saying, in the first part of the sentence, the difference between how much I love Juan and how much I love you is a measurable difference? But that in the second part of the sentence, the difference between how much I love you and how much you think I love you is not measurable. Right? They both seem equally measurable/unmeasurable to me.............

I think that there is some big, huge elephant in the room that I am truly not seeing, and everyone else is wondering what the !@#$ is wrong with me........

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by laepelba

What is wrong with me? I don't see a post #15 in that thread. When I look at it, it ends with post #14 and there are no more pages....???

ooooops, we meant post no. 11, the one you quote

Originally Posted by laepelba

(And I definitely don't understand what "ellipsed" and "finite" verbs are...)

But you actually do this in your example - something ellipsed is understood and missed out, so in A is bigger than B (is big) the (is big) is ellipsed. A finite verb is a verb form which actually has meaning as a verb:

I sing - finite
to sing - not finite, infinitive
singing - not finite - gerund or pres. part.
I am singing - finite

In the ellipsed (is big), is is finite

(off topic: remove the punctuation and defy someone to make sense of in the ellipsed is big is is finite)

Originally Posted by laepelba

Let's use this sentence as an example. (I found it in one of Malila's posts on a different thread.)
Quiero a Juan más que a ti, pero te quiero más de lo que crees.

According to what you're saying, in the first part of the sentence, the difference between how much I love Juan and how much I love you is a measurable difference? But that in the second part of the sentence, the difference between how much I love you and how much you think I love you is not measurable. Right? They both seem equally measurable/unmeasurable to me.............

Quiero a Juan más que [quiero ellipsed] a ti

The magnitude for my love for Juan = A
The magnitude for my love for you = B

The above statement Quiero a Juan más que a ti
actually says A > B

In order to make that statement, it must be a measurable difference, even if only qualitative.

te quiero más de lo que crees This second part is not so specific, it is not a direct comparison, therefore not such a measurable comparison.

I'm not sure whether this logical distinction is helpful, because it is perhaps unconvincing. Ultimately, it is a grammatical distinction, which (sadly) does not need the logical explanation you seem to need.

Does that help?

[pjt33]

Originally Posted by laepelba

Let me see if I can do a better job of explaining where I'm stuck...

In the first sentence I see: Subject/adjective + verb + más + descriptor + que + subject (+ understood verb "soy").

In the second sentence I see: (Understood subject eso/esto +) más + descriptor + de + object + subject + verb.

I hear you telling me that it canNOT be "Su hermano pequeño es mas alto de yo" nor can it be "Es más complicado que tú crees."

Unfortunately, I don't understand why. What is the difference between the situations in these two sentences so that I know when to use "más que" and when to use "más de" in situations like this? I have spent several hours trying to come up with sentences to practice this difference, but I can't understand the difference, and after several hours I have a very blank sheet of paper.

Given that you're a mathmo...

The first sentence is saying f(X) > f(Y). His brother is taller than I am. It measures the same property and compares.

The second sentence is saying f(X) > g(X). I suspect there are examples fitting that structure which use más que, but I think it's a good rule of thumb that this type of comparison uses más de.

The Corpus del español* has more than ten thousand examples of each of más que and más de, so if you want to try to find exceptions...

* http://www.corpusdelespanol.org/

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by pjt33

The second sentence is saying f(X) > g(X).

damn - that's what I was trying to say.

Could it not be taken on a very simple level, that if the second clause involves a que, the first que is avoided and becomes a de ? I know this is not a grammatical explanation, but it is perhaps a good mnemonic.

[pjt33]

Comparisons against constants also use de. Peso más de 70 kilos.

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

So no post #15... I definitely need some rest and take a careful look at my sources.

@Pjt & Perikles: Thank you...

[Perikles]

Originally Posted by AngelicaDeAlquezar

So no post #15... I definitely need some rest and take a careful look at my sources.

I'm sure it wasn't a deliberate attempt at winding somebody up ....

[laepelba]

Originally Posted by Perikles

But you actually do this in your example - something ellipsed is understood and missed out, so in A is bigger than B (is big) the (is big) is ellipsed. A finite verb is a verb form which actually has meaning as a verb:
<-- When you say "has meaning", do you mean contains a complete subject/action meaning (even if the subject is implied and not necessarily stated...?
<-- So "ellipsed" is like when I said "understood"? It's not written/said as part of the sentence, but it's understood to be there?

I sing - finite
to sing - not finite, infinitive
singing - not finite - gerund or pres. part.
I am singing - finite

In the ellipsed (is big), is is finite

Quiero a Juan más que [quiero ellipsed] a ti

The magnitude for my love for Juan = A
The magnitude for my love for you = B

The above statement Quiero a Juan más que a ti
actually says A > B

In order to make that statement, it must be a measurable difference, even if only qualitative.

te quiero más de lo que crees This second part is not so specific, it is not a direct comparison, therefore not such a measurable comparison.
<-- I believe that this is what's tripping me up here. I can imagine this statement being "te quiero más que crees que te quiero" where the comparison is between **how much I love you** and **how much (you think) I love you**.

I'm not sure whether this logical distinction is helpful, because it is perhaps unconvincing. Ultimately, it is a grammatical distinction, which (sadly) does not need the logical explanation you seem to need.
<-- It feels like the "logic" of it has escaped me. I wish I could see the grammatical distinction, because I feel like I'd be better off....

Does that help?
<-- I'm on the path...

Originally Posted by pjt33

Given that you're a mathmo... A mathmo! I like that descriptor.

The first sentence is saying f(X) > f(Y). His brother is taller than I am. It measures the same property and compares.

The second sentence is saying f(X) > g(X). I suspect there are examples fitting that structure which use más que, but I think it's a good rule of thumb that this type of comparison uses más de.
<-- I do see that this is what Perikles was saying ... and I understand the concept, but still am not always seeing it applied. Like what I wrote above (I can imagine this statement being "te quiero más que crees que te quiero" where the comparison is between **how much I love you** and **how much (you think) I love you**). It seems to me that even in this statement, it's still f(x) and f(y) like in the first part because both are still talking about a measurement of my love for you.

The Corpus del español* has more than ten thousand examples of each of más que and más de, so if you want to try to find exceptions...

* http://www.corpusdelespanol.org/
<-- I don't have time right now to give this link the look that it deserves, but will get to it either tonight or tomorrow. I look forward to analyzing more examples...

Originally Posted by Perikles

damn - that's what I was trying to say.
<-- That IS what you said! Comparing apples to apples, vs. comparing apples to oranges. I see that much. It's just the way I define apples and oranges...

Could it not be taken on a very simple level, that if the second clause involves a que, the first que is avoided and becomes a de ? I know this is not a grammatical explanation, but it is perhaps a good mnemonic.
<-- So let me ask this: Do the "más de" phrases ALWAYS have either "lo que" OR a specific quantity? Stated in reverse, is there ever an instance where "más de" is used (1) without a specific quantity AND (2) without "lo que"? If not, then I need to restudy the "lo que" part and not the "más de" part.

Originally Posted by Perikles

I'm sure it wasn't a deliberate attempt at winding somebody up ....

Honestly, what I thought was that some people (like moderators) have certain permissions that others of us don't, and I figured that maybe Malila really DOES see more than 15 posts when she looks at it, but others of us don't... It was post #11 that was helpful to me anyway...

Thanks, all! I won't be online much this afternoon/evening, but will work on this again either tonight or tomorrow ... and will answer more (or ask more ) then. Truly, I thank you all for the energy you put into answering my ridiculous volume of questions.........