Diptongos, Hiatos y Triptongos = Confundido

[Iceycold]

So what your trying to say is that I don't need rules for accenting for diptongos, & hiatos, because they all point to the stressed vowel always receiving the mark?

if not.. My question still stands: What happens to a word that is a hiato or diptongo, but it does not need a tilde because of the general rules? I don't put a tilde at all?

What I mean by this, say we have a word that is aguda and finishes in z or j or b any letter that isn't n, s, o vocal. So it doesn't need an accent mark. After this, I see it is a dipthong, would it receive the rules of accent mark of dipthongs?

Sorry for this being such a huge headache for you guys.

[Rusty]

How do you know which syllable receives the stress in an English word? You can only know this if you've heard it said or if you've looked it up in a dictionary that provides a pronunciation guide. There's no other way.
Now, what would happen if I misspelled the word? How would you learn how to pronounce the word? You can no longer look the word up in a dictionary, so you have no pronunciation guide. Do you have any recourse? Only one; I would need to pronounce it for you. Even pronounced correctly, there's still the possibility that neither of us could find it in the dictionary because of all the quirks of English orthography.


If you've never seen a particular Spanish word before, and there's no promise as to whether it's properly spelled, you would have the same difficulty trying to pronounce it correctly. The word must either be spoken or it must be spelled correctly in order for you to have a fighting chance.
If a word is properly spelled (which includes the accent mark, if present), the rules of accentuation enable you to pronounce it correctly even if you've never heard or seen the word before.

You've been telling us that your teacher is going to introduce you to words that may be misspelled. In other words, the key to proper pronunciation may be removed. Without that key, I've been trying to tell you that there is great margin for error. It is ridiculous to think that you can pronounce Spanish words if they are misspelled, just as much so in English.

You've mentioned once in awhile that a word is aguda or llana (grave). These denominations only tell us which syllable is stressed. (There are two other denominations you haven't mentioned - esdrújula and sobresdrújula.) If a two- or three-vowel combination appears in a word that is misspelled, you can no longer use these denominations as the key to correct pronunciation, because you have no way of knowing if a diphthong or triphthong is supposed to be broken up by adding an accent mark or not. That's why I've been talking about continuo, continúo and continuó. La primera es una palabra llana/grave, con la fuerza de voz en la sílaba que contiene la i. La segunda palabra también es una palabra llana/grave, pero el golpe de voz queda en la u. How do you know which syllable is supposed to be stressed if the word is misspelled (missing an accent mark)? You can't possibly know.

To answer your outstanding question, you've been told that a word is aguda (that means it's stressed on the last syllable), you've seen that it ends in a consonant that isn't n or s and correctly deduced that it doesn't need an accent mark (rules applied), but you've also noted that there is a group of vowels prior to the final consonant. Would you need to accent a vowel? No. Why? Because you were told that the word is stressed on the final syllable and its ending is congruent with having no need for an accent mark. Simple. Here are some examples:
fiel, caer, soez, continuar

On the other hand, if you weren't told which syllable is stressed, you would have no way of knowing what to do with the word if it contains a group of vowels.
You must be given a clue. You either need to be shown which syllable is stressed (by vowel name) or you must insist on a correct spelling (again, correct spelling means that a needed accent mark will be present).

[Iceycold]

I'm assuming (he's not very consistent with the exams) that he will give us say 20 words and tell us to put the tilde where needed. So yes I understand what you mean by the test is flawed, but hey I need to take it.

To answer your outstanding question, you've been told that a word is aguda (that means it's stressed on the last syllable), you've seen that it ends in a consonant that isn't n or s and correctly deduced that it doesn't need an accent mark (rules applied), but you've also noted that there is a group of vowels prior to the final consonant. Would you need to accent a vowel? No. Why? Because you were told that the word is stressed on the final syllable and its ending is congruent with having no need for an accent mark. Simple. Here are some examples:
fiel, caer, soez, continuar

So to finally end this large dilemma, if a word does not follow the general rules FIRSTLY, there's no way wether it's diptongo, hiato, o triptongo, it will get a tilde right?

To put it even simpler: The general rules take priority over the accent rules of dipthong, hiatus, and tripthong?

[Rusty]

I don't follow. Will you have a clue as to how the word is pronounced or not? If not, you can't figure out where an accent mark will be needed with any degree of certainty. Period. I would severely criticize such a test.

When the word continuo is spelled properly with no accent mark, it has only one possible pronunciation - /kon.ˈti.nwo/. The group of vowels at the end is, therefore, a diphthong. If I told you the stress doesn't fall on the syllable that contains the 'i', then it's safe to assume that I have omitted an accent mark. The problem is, there are three other vowels. How do you know which one of those is stressed? You don't, not unless I tell you which one it is. If I said the first 'o' is stressed, the correct answer is cóntinuo (/'kon.ti.nwo/). If I said the 'u' is stressed, the correct answer is continúo (/kon.ti.'nu.o/). If I said the final 'o' is stressed, the correct answer is continuó (/kon.ti.'nwo/). As you can see, four vowels make four possible answers. You need to hear which vowel is stressed before you can spell the word correctly. There is no such word as cóntinuo in Spanish, but Spanish spelling rules allow such a word. If the stressed vowel is the 'i', the rules will steer you away from decoupling the diphthong. If the stressed vowel is the 'u', the group of vowels become a hiatus and the rules for marking a hiatus will apply. If the stressed vowel is the final 'o', the grouped vowels is still considered a hiatus, but the rules for palabras agudas will apply. Word stress is what drives the placement of an accent mark. Nothing else. If you don't know which vowel is stressed, all bets are off.

[aleCcowaN]

Originally Posted by Iceycold

So to finally end this large dilemma, if a word does not follow the general rules FIRSTLY, there's no way wether it's diptongo, hiato, o triptongo, it will get a tilde right?

To put it even simpler: The general rules take priority over the accent rules of dipthong, hiatus, and tripthong?

Forgive me for being blunt, but I think that what you're asking doesn't exist. There are not two set of rules: everything follows the general rules, and there are details about where to place accent marks in diphthongs and triphthongs, and an exception in some hiatus that make we end up with palabras llanas containing a tilde when you wouldn't expect it, just because we would pronounce a different word if it wasn't there.

The whole set of rules mixes how some idealized Spanish is, for instance, "los hiatos formados por dos vocales abiertas siguen las reglas generales de acentuación", that supposes "cao" can't be a single syllable in Spanish and it mandatory is "ca-o", and it mixes that with some operational rules to avoid confusions, as in "en los hiatos formados por vocal abierta y vocal cerrada la tilde se coloca sobre la vocal cerrada", what makes "vía" a two-syllable word that shouldn't have an accent mark according to the general rules, but would be pronounced "via" like in "viaducto" if it doesn't.

The purpose of these rules -some of them are "mandatory" (Nelson's "ha-haw!") just since 1999- is to end up with the accent marks reflecting the pronunciation of different sets of speakers, as in "guión" or "construír", where the existence of accent marks violating the general rules tells the reader the way the speaker pronounce them (as hiatus), what is immaterial because the readers know how THEY pronounce the words and if they had wanted to know the way the writer pronounced them, they would have got a tape.

[Iceycold]

Wow, I'm very tangled up here.

There are not two set of rules

Okay, so then what's the difference between the normal rules, (aguda, llana, etc..) and these rules you gave me earlier:

Los diptongos siguen las reglas generales de acentuación: ciudad, función, gratuito, cuídalo

En caso de llevar tilde, en la combinación abierta-cerrada llevan tilde en la abierta (función), y en caso de cerrada-cerrada, en la segunda (cuídalo)

Los triptongos siguen las reglas generales de acentuación: miau, confiéis

En caso de llevar tilde, la llevan en la vocal abierta: confiéis

Los hiatos formados por dos vocales abiertas o por dos vocales idénticas siguen las reglas generales de acentuación: veedor, petróleo, caé, cae

Los hiatos formados por vocal abierta átona y vocal cerrada tónica llevan tilde en la vocal cerrada independientemente de que así lo exijan las reglas generales de acentuación: lío (palabra llana), caído (palabra llana), caí (palabra aguda), vahído (palabra grave).

Are you saying I can ignore this, classify a word as a dipthong, or hiatus, and then find the stressed vowel and mark it? I've seen words that are dipthongs/hiatus, and according to the above rules should always be marked, but they are not, this is where I get confused.

@Rusty- Yes, the teacher will say each word once, and very rapidly (major flaw), by the time I'm figuring out where the stressed vowel is in word 2, he'll be in word 8.

Oh and by the way, I fully understand triptongos, so I guess that's good for you guys, haha. Tres vocales en una misma siliba que se pronuncian juntas. 1 debil + 1 fuerte (stress with mark) + 1 debil siempre forma Triptongo.

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

Please note:

·siliba should be sílaba -> palabra esdrújula
·debil should be débil -> palabra llana/grave que no termina en n, s ó vocal.

You seem to be focusing on finding some recipe for "hiatos"/"diptongos"/"triptongos" before trying to apply the general rules for writing accents.
Knowing these rules will logically lead you to write the accent on the right syllable (and vowel). If you don't apply these rules, no matter how many times you hear a word, you won't know how to distinguish a "sílaba tónica" or the combination of vowels in it. It's the same when you read a word --with or without a written accent: if you know the general rules, you will know where to pronounce the accent and whether you must separate or not a combination of vowels.
By the way, not all "hiatos"/"diptongos"/"triptongos" belong to a "sílaba tónica".

[Iceycold]

But why are there words that don't follow the aguda, llana, esdrujula etc.. rules and still get an accent because they are hiatos or diptongos?

I just need to know WHY that happens in the above situation, is there a rule for it?

edit: Hang on, don't all these acentuacion rules for hiatos and diptongos just technically reflect that all the times the tilde goes on the stressed vowel? Like say diptongos with two debiles will always have it on the second vowel because in those words the second vowel ALWAYS stressed? I think I got it now, not sure if right or not.

[aleCcowaN]

Originally Posted by Iceycold

edit: Hang on, don't all these acentuacion rules for hiatos and diptongos just technically reflect that all the times the tilde goes on the stressed vowel? Like say diptongos with two debiles will always have it on the second vowel because in those words the second vowel ALWAYS stressed? I think I got it now, not sure if right or not.

Tildes are the graphical evidence of stress on a sound level, otherwise, why would we have them?

No tilde goes on an unstressed vowel. The general rules and the special rule related to hiatos were developed to: a) (almost) avoid any ambiguity -you have the right pronunciation just by reading the word, exactly as English does - b) do it using as few tildes as possible.

[Iceycold]

Okay think I finally got it. Is this right?

Diptongos:
-En diptongo formado por dos vocales debiles, siempre se pone tilde en la segunda vocal
-En diptongo formado por cualquier combinacion de fuerte y debil, se pone tilde en la vocal fuerte.

Hiatos:
-En hiato formado por dos vocales fuertes llevan tilde si: siguen las reglas generales de aguda, llana, esdrujula etc..
-En hiato formado por dos vocales identicas llevan tilde si: siguen las relgas de aguda, llana, etc..
-En hiato formado por cualquier combinacion de fuerte y debil, llevan el tilde en la vocal debil siempre.

Triptongos: debil + fuerte (con tilde) debil <-- pfft These are too easy.

[AngelicaDeAlquezar]

Please note that there is a dropdown menu on top of text boxes in the forum, so you can insert the right Spanish characters where they belong.
"Debil", "debiles", "esdrujula", "combinacion" are all words that do need written accents (you can even use the last one to practice on "diptongos").

[Iceycold]

Thank you for that suggestion, but I'd prefer to use the accent marks once I understand all of this properly.

Is what I wrote on my last post correct?

[aleCcowaN]

Originally Posted by Iceycold

Thank you for that suggestion, but I'd prefer to use the accent marks once I understand all of this properly.

That sounded as if you said you'd be abide by traffic laws once you knew them well.

It's not a matter of preference. You must, most of all if you're asking everybody to take time in explaining all of this to you. And free fast spelling correctors make it pretty much inexcusable, making all less of i-cannot and more of i-do-not-care (with the right i).

In the Spanish speaking world, not using accent marks is regarded as a teenage thing (when they are in a rebellious phase thinking that they are incapable of doing just because they are prevented of doing) or as a sign of sloppiness, lack of education and/or trouble or lack of will to abide by social rules.

[Iceycold]

Okay, here goes:

Lo que yo escribí en mi último mensaje esta correcto?

[Rusty]

¿Es correcto lo que escribí en mi último mensaje?

You must FIRST know how a Spanish word is pronounced and THEN you apply the accentuation rules when it comes time to write the word.

The last list of rules you wrote doesn't make mention that the rules only apply if the diphthong, hiatus or triphthong falls in the stressed syllable. That must be your FIRST consideration.

Here are two Spanish words. One of them is misspelled.
guardia
sandia

Here I've divided those words into the syllables that comprise them and have highlighted the stressed syllable.

guar - dia
san - di - a

I did this so you can 'hear' how the word is pronounced.
Once you know how a word is pronounced, you can then apply the rules of accentuation when writing the word down.

The first syllable of 'guardia' contains a diphthong; we know this because the vowels are voiced in symphony, making a single syllable. This is the stressed syllable in the word, but no accent mark is required because the vowels are voiced together.
The second syllable of 'guardia' also contains a diphthong; we know this because the vowels are voiced together, making a single syllable. This is not the stressed syllable, so there's never a need to examine it for accentuation.
So, since neither syllable needed a written accent mark, 'guardia' is correctly spelled.

The second word is the misspelled word.
Looking at the pronunciation guide I wrote, you can see that the vowel group at the end of the word is not a diphthong; it's a hiatus. The vowels are not voiced together, but make two syllables. The syllable that contains the 'i' is the stressed syllable. In order to write the word properly, it now becomes important to check the accentuation rules. The vowels need to be decoupled by accenting (adding an acute accent mark) the stressed vowel. This is because the stressed vowel is a weak vowel. If it were a strong vowel, there would be no need for a written accent mark.
Therefore, 'sandia' must be written 'sandía' in order to be spelled correctly and pronounced correctly by someone else who reads what you've written. If you don't spell it correctly, it would be pronounced 'san - dia' instead of 'san - di - a'.

This is why we're stressing the use of the accent mark. It's not optional to omit it, when needed.

I hope you understand by now that you must know how a word is pronounced PRIOR to writing it. I'm glad to hear that your teacher realizes this and will be pronouncing the words for you PRIOR to asking you to provide an accent mark, if needed. All you have to do is quickly tick (mark by some means) the stressed syllable of each word you hear. Then, and only then, you'll have the key to figure out how the accentuation rules apply to each word. Piece of cake.

[Iceycold]

Much appreciated Rusty. I understand what you mean, Maria is spelled wrong because it said like that would sound like mar-i-uh
And spelled like this: María sounds like mar-i-a. The i is stressed.

So this dilemma that I have in my head of a word being say aguda/llana/esdrújula/sobresdrujula, it not needing a tilde cause of their rules, and then there being a tilde cause of it being a diptongo/hiato doesn't exist and I'm just crazy right?

[aleCcowaN]

The only instances where both set of rules contradicts (general and those specific to diphthongs, triphthongs an hiatus) are like this:

impío (im-pi-o) ---> is palabra llana ended in a vowel, but it has a tilde on the tonic vowel in order to break the diphthong into a hiatus and prevent it to be pronounced (im-pio)

chiíta (chi-i-ta) ---> is llana ended in a vowel, but it has a tilde on the tonic vowel in order to break into a hiatus the otherwise long vowel and prevent it to be pronounced (chii-ta)

Except for this, there wasn't any rule 'conflict' from the very beginning. And we solve it by applying specific rules to specific situations (hiatus and the like).

The whole spelling rules in Spanish, including accent marks, allow you to pronounce an unknown word without even having heard it once. Also, rules allow you to write down an unknown word with its correct accent marks. But if you have no clue but a misspelled word, you'd have to guess, as in that "continuo" example that Rusty explained.

[Iceycold]

Hmm, I see. So really every dipthong/hiatus needs a tilde huh? And in the case that the general rules say no, the specific ones would intervene?

That sound right?

[Rusty]

No, an accent mark is only used when needed.

Word stress drives the placement of an accent mark, nothing else. Only word stress should be considered when deciding if a word needs an accent mark and where it goes.

petróleo (pe - tro - le - o)
The stressed syllable in this word is the second syllable of four. The last two syllables, the hiatus, is not even considered in the accentuation determination.

europeo (eu - ro - pe - o)
The stressed syllable in this word is the third syllable of four. The diphthong in the first syllable is ignored when considering if an accent mark is needed. The hiatus at the end is considered, however, since it forms the second-to-last and the last syllables. No accent mark is needed because the second-to-last syllable naturally gets stressed when a hiatus consisting of two strong vowels is used.

Uruguay (u - ru - guay)
The stressed syllable in this word is the third syllable of three. A triphthong is contained in the last syllable. It is considered in the accentuation determination process, but no accent mark is written because the final 'y' is considered to be a consonant. Since it isn't 'n' or 's', the final syllable is naturally stressed.

As demonstrated, not all diphthongs, hiatuses or triphthongs need an accent mark.

I'll say it again. Just listen to how a word is said, and then apply accentuation rules when you attempt to write it. If all you have is written material, hope that the person who wrote the material knows how to spell. If the words are spelled correctly (correctly accented, included), you can pronounce every word correctly if you know the rules. That's the nice thing about Spanish.

Your teacher wants you to know the rules and strictly adhere to them. That way, you'll be able to pronounce every word you see and you'll be able to spell every word you hear.

[aleCcowaN]

Originally Posted by Iceycold

Hmm, I see. So really every dipthong/hiatus needs a tilde huh? And in the case that the general rules say no, the specific ones would intervene?

That sound right?

That sounds awfully wrong.

So far, explanations here are more than enough to master the subject. I suggest you to reread all the thread carefully.